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wjwalsh

Adam-God

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I am trying to refine my thoughts about Adam-God and would like to know what issues exist that I have not adequately addrssed below ~ WJW

Before leaving Smith

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Yawn....this thread again....

Adam is not God the Father it's very obvious from the discourse that it was recorded wrong. Adam is Michael, Jesus is Jehovah, and Heavenly Father is Elohim. If you read President Smiths Answers to Gospel Questions he explains it. There are also 4 or 5 explainations on this board.

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Yawn....this thread again....

Adam is not God the Father it's very obvious from the discourse that it was recorded wrong. Adam is Michael, Jesus is Jehovah, and Heavenly Father is Elohim. If you read President Smiths Answers to Gospel Questions he explains it. There are also 4 or 5 explainations on this board.

Drevan,

When Joseph Fielding Smith gave his explanation of Adam-God, all the focus was on one text; and his explanation might have seemed tenable at that time based on that one text. However, in the decades since he gave his response, many other texts have surfaced and are available to the public. These texts make it clear that Brigham Young did in fact declare Adam to be God.

When I was a student at BYU, two religion professors told me that Brigham Young taught Adam-God, and because he did, Brigham Young was a false prophet and the Church espoused false doctrine as central theology for almost 50 years. I have never really been comfortable with their explanation and have sought to understand Adam-God in a way that leaves the prophethood of Brigham Young intact.

WJW

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Do you see a significant problem with accepting the teaching as Adam as God a Father as opposed to God THE Father? To me this settles the problem of such contradictions as exists even within the same sermon.

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wjwalsh,

I have a little free time today, so I thought I

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When I was a student at BYU, two religion professors told me that Brigham Young taught Adam-God, and because he did, Brigham Young was a false prophet and the Church espoused false doctrine as central theology for almost 50 years.

These BYU religion professors were LDS members at the time? It was really their position that Brigham Young was a false prophet?

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Do you see a significant problem with accepting the teaching as Adam as God a Father as opposed to God THE Father? To me this settles the problem of such contradictions as exists even within the same sermon.

What is the difference between God a Father and God THE Father?

WJW

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I disagree. I think there are plenty of valid reasons for someone to believe that they might understand Smith

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Im not gonna touch this thread again, Its been thouroughly beat to death. If you can't accept the fact you're wrong, then you have your own issues. Adam is Michael, Jesus is Jehovah, and God the Father is Elohim not to mention the Father of Michael/Adam.

I don't beleive professors would be teaching such trash as Adam God at BYU, they'd be fired.

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wjwalsh,

(1) Your citation for the claim that Brigham claimed that Joseph taught him the Adam-God doctrine is Buerger (footnote 742). I don't have this material. If you could just give me the citation from Brigham (and not commentary) that would be great.

(2) Some people would, yes. And some might have logical reasons for believing this. And some of them might be right, on some issues, since Brigham didn't have access to some of Joseph's teachings.

(3) Well, first we need to establish clearly that Brigham did claim that it was Joseph's teaching. Then we need to establish whether or not Brigham taught it.

(4) One flaw in your argument, in my opinion, is that while your theory about what Brigham meant may be consistent with what he said, that doesn't mean that that is what Brigham meant. There may be other theories that are consistent with his words, or it may just be that Brigham wasn't consistent.

I personally like you take. Others have taken that route also. You may want to check out the FAIR Adam-God articles.

(5) No. But I think one might be able to demonstrate that Brigham was just as "free" in his theology during persecution. It requires more evidence either way.

(6) Maybe. I haven't recently looked over all the Adam-God materials. I personally like your theory. I just would like more evidence (than consistency) to support that that is what Brigham meant.

Best,

Zeta-Flux

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P.S. You may want to clarify some of your terminology, specifically the term "Adam-God doctrine." You seem to equivocate a little, and define it at the beginning of the section as the teaching that "Adam, the father of Cain, is Heavenly Father" but then later try to redefine it. You might want to refer to the earlier teaching as the "fundamentalist Adam-God teaching" and yours as something else (a synthesis perhaps).

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These BYU religion professors were LDS members at the time? It was really their position that Brigham Young was a false prophet?

Yes and Yes. For me, it was a rather shocking experience, as I was a new convert and somewhat naive at the time [my mother says I still am :P ]. Being told that Brigham Young was a false prophet who led the Church astray was troubling to me. Since that time, I have tried to reconcile the various Adam-God statements with what I know about Joseph Smith's theology.

I suspect that many, many knowledgeable members of the Church, including General Authorities, hold the same position or something similar but less extreme. For example, there is the famous Elder McConkie letter in which he says Brigham Young was a true prophet, but he had an incorrect understanding of God and taught falsely when he taught Adam-God.

I have often felt it somewhat ironic that I, a convert, am willing to declare that Brigham Young was a true prophet, while so many descendents of those who crossed the plains with him reject him.

WJW

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Which prophet first put down the Adam-God teaching first, and when?

Paul O

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wjwalsh,

(1) Your citation for the claim that Brigham claimed that Joseph taught him the Adam-God doctrine is Buerger (footnote 742). I don't have this material. If you could just give me the citation from Brigham (and not commentary) that would be great.

(4) One flaw in your argument, in my opinion, is that while your theory about what Brigham meant may be consistent with what he said, that doesn't mean that that is what Brigham meant. There may be other theories that are consistent with his words, or it may just be that Brigham wasn't consistent.

Zeta-Flux,

(1) Here is the reference from Brigham Young: "You came out tonight & place them as charges, & have as many against me as I have you. One thing I thought I might still have omitted It was Joseph's doctrine that Adam was God when in Luke Johnson's, at O Hyde the power came upon us, or such that alarmed the neighborhood. God comes to earth & eats & partakes of fruit" (April 4, 1860, Miscellaneous Papers, Brigham Young Collection, LDS Archives.) Buerger gives other references as well (there are at least 3 documented occasions of when BY claimed to received the Adam-God doctrine from JS), as well as second-hand testimony from leading members of the Church who were present.

(2) I present a theory. To my knowledge, it is the most likely theory. But if someone has a better one, I would love to hear it. That is why I started this thread.

(3) I think it is indisputable that BY taught Adam-God (i.e., God the Father = Adam). I think it is indisputable that he claimed to have received the teaching from JS. I think it unlikely (but disputable) that BY misunderstood the doctrine. I think the most likely scenario is that we don't know what it means because we are so trapped in a Protestant-Catholic interpretation of the scriptures.

WJW

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Brigham Young did not teach that Adam was God the Father, You and others take a sentence here and a sentance there out of a persons career spanning decades and try to make a case out of it while ignoring everything else the same person said on the subject.

Anyone who thinks that Brigham Young taught that Adam was God the Father is showing that they have NEVER even read the 2 sermons that the Anti's get that from.

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Well, I've read enough to learn that Brigham Young did in fact believe Adam is our Heavenly Father. There are many times where he taught this. I could believe an error in transcription once or twice, but time and time again, records show he did believe this. I accept the fact that he may have been mistaken. I also accept the fact it may be true. But he had a hard time convincing the saints in his day of the doctrine and may be that he stopped teaching it because it was too sacred, or too advanced for the members at large. Joseph Smith once said that if he taught the saints everyting he knew about the Gospel, not a soul would stay with him. President Hinckley recently commented on the Adam God doctrine and said he didn't know what Brigham meant by that and he is not going to worry about it. So we shouldn't either.

Here follows Brigham Young's early "lecture at the veil," excerpted from Elder Nuttall's Journal:

In the creation the Gods entered into an agreement about forming this earth. & putting Michael or Adam upon it. these things of which I have been speaking are what are termed the mysteries of godliness but they will enable you to understand the expression of Jesus made while in Jerusalem. This is life eternal that they might know thee the only true God and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent. We were once acquainited [acquainted] with the Gods & lived with them but we had the privilige of taking upon us flesh that the spirit might have a house to dwell in. we did so and forgot all and came into the world not recollecting anything of which we had previously learned. We have heard a great deal about Adam and Eve. how they were formed &c some think he was made like an adobie and the Lord breathed into him the breath of life. for we read "from dust thou art and unto dust shalt thou return" Well he was made of the dust of the earth but not of this earth. he was made just the same way you and I are made but on another earth. Adam was an immortal being when he came. on this earth he had lived on an earth similar to ours he had received the Priesthood and the Keys thereof. and had been faithful in all things and gained his resurrection and his exaltation and was crowned with glory immortality and eternal lives and was numbered with the Gods for such he became through his faithfulness. and had begotten all the spirit that was to come to this earth. and Eve our common Mother who is the mother of all living bore those spirits in the celestial world. and when this earth was organized by Elohim. Jehovah & Michael who is Adam our common Father. Adam & Eve had the privilege to continue the work of Progression. consequently came to this earth and commenced the great work of forming tabernacles for those spirits to dwell in. and when Adam and those that assisted him had completed this Kingdom our earth he came to it. and slept and forgot all and became like an Infant child. it is said by Moses the historian that the Lord caused a deep sleep to come upon Adam and took from his side a rib and formed the woman that Adam called Eve-this should be interpreted that the Man Adam like all other Men had the seed within him to propagate his species. but not the Woman. she conceives the seed but she does not produce it. consequently she was taken from the side or bowels of her father. this explains the mystery of Moses's dark sayings in regard to Adam and Eve. Adam & Eve when they were placed on this earth were immortal beings with flesh. bones and sinews. but upon partaking of the fruits of the earth while in the garden and cultivating the ground their bodies became changed from immortal to mortal beings with the blood coursing through their veins as the action of life. Adam was not under transgression until after he partook of the forbidden fruit that was nesesary that they might be together that man might be. the woman was found in trans-gression not the Man- Now in the law of Sacrifice we have the promise of a Savior and man had the privilege and showed forth his obedience by offering of the first fruits of the earth and the firstlings of the flocks- this as a showing that Jesus would come and shed his blood

[Four lines without any writing on them.]

Father Adam's oldest son (Jesus the Saviour) who is the heir of the family is Father Adams first begotten in the spirit World. who according to the flesh is the only begotten as it is written. (In his divinity he having gone back into the spirit World. and come in the spirit [glory] to Mary and she conceived for when Adam and Eve got through with their Work in this earth. they did not lay their bodies down in the dust, but returned to the spirit World from whence they came.

I felt myself much blessed in being permitted to associate with such men and hear such instructions as they savored of life to me-

(Source: Journal of L. John Nuttall; BYU Special Collections; Pres. Brigham Young; delivered in St. George; Wed., Feb. 7, 1877. This was the first draft of the Lecture at the Veil. Brother L. John Nuttall was the private secretary to President Brigham Young until his (Brigham's) death in 1877. He then became the private secretary to President John Taylor (1879-1887) and again to President Wilford Woodruff (1887-1892):

This doctrine was believed by most Mormons at the time. However, Apostle Orson Pratt opposed it, and argued against it.

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Adam is, as you say, a name title. As is Eve. Thus the title "Adam" may be referring to more than one person and the same for Eve. Michael is the Adam of our earth, the father of our bodies, who could be considered God a Father, but still is an incomplete version, not having fulfilled all the righteousness and acts of God The Father, the Ultimate Adam.

Elohim, our spirit father would be the ultimate Adam, God THE Father, Heavenly Father.

There are too many of BY"s sermons that treat Adam of this Earth as a separate personage from Heavenly Father. Understanding the issue of the name-title requires us to figure out what Adam is being discussed from context rather than assuming it means the individual known as Michael.

Christ cannot be the only begotten in the flesh is Adam of this earth is Heavenly Father.

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Elohim, our spirit father would be the ultimate Adam, God THE Father, Heavenly Father.

I guess my point is something like this: Let's step back a moment and forget which God and which Adam we are talking about and discuss process. There is no ultimate Adam or God in my view. Joseph taught that God the Father had a Father. Likewise, he had a Father, who had a Father, and so forth. Each Father had a mortal probation, each became resurrected, each was exalted into Godhood, and each started a new creation with their own spirit children. BY taught that our original first mortal parents were as conversant with their Heavenly Grandfather as they were with their Heavenly Father. Thus, I am not sure in what way the Father of our spirit bodies could be considered the ultimate.

WJW

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Well, I've read enough to learn that Brigham Young did in fact believe Adam is our Heavenly Father.

So, what you are saying is you;ve never actually read BY's sermons, you've just read what Anti's wrote about his sermons with selective quotes taken out of context. I see.

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Well, I've read enough to learn that Brigham Young did in fact believe Adam is our Heavenly Father.

So, what you are saying is you;ve never actually read BY's sermons, you've just read what Anti's wrote about his sermons with selective quotes taken out of context. I see.

mnn727,

Brigham Young taught that Adam was God. There are many, many sources to that effect not only from Brigham Young, but from many early Church leaders. Now, you can explain the teachings in various ways, but he did in fact teach it. I would refer you not to anti-Mormon sources, but a Master's thesis from a BYU religion professor, Rodney Turner, for more information. I also think FAIR has a copy of Van Hale's article on Adam-God somewhere on their site. Van Hale was also a Mormon, not an anti-Mormon.

I think that denying historical reality is less than helpful to either the Church's reputation or your own personal growth.

WJW

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So, what you are saying is you;ve never actually read BY's sermons, you've just read what Anti's wrote about his sermons with selective quotes taken out of context. I see.

No, I've read the sermons in total. I do agree that anti's use partial quotes to try and change the intended meaning of many of our doctrines. But I have read the sermons in their entirety and early church leaders have recorded in their diary's specificly as to this doctrine. It was at one time part of the temple endowment.

I personally do not know whether it is true, especially since latter day prophets have denounced it and it appears that BY also taught in other sermoms the more accepted belief of who Adam is. But, I do not reject it. I beleive once all the mysteries are revealed, there will be much stranger things than this that will tun out to be true. For more info on Adam God, check this out.

http://www.koz2.org/html/adam_god.html

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My question is, how do you account for the time when Brigham Young in the Deseret News article in the last Adam-God thread where Brigham Young says that Adam is Micheal, a great prince and Elohoim tells him "Go ye and make an earth."

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My question is, how do you account for the time when Brigham Young in the Deseret News article in the last Adam-God thread where Brigham Young says that Adam is Micheal, a great prince and Elohoim tells him "Go ye and make an earth."

What is there to account for? (I am trying to understand your exact issue)

WJW

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I guess I'm asking "Isn't Elohoim God?"

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