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Tribunal

Apostalic Witness

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Thunderfire    53

The Lord doesn't want people to know he exists he wants people to have the faith to believe he exists, our faith is how be obtain eternal life.

Can you explain further what you mean here? (Giving the benefit of the doubt that this isn't exactly what you intended to say)

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LDS Guy 1986    38

Can you explain further what you mean here? (Giving the benefit of the doubt that this isn't exactly what you intended to say)

I have explained this several times in this thread I believe.

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mercyngrace    959

Didn't the brother of Jared, essentially, pierce the veil?

I believe he was transfigured because of the depth of his faith, the scriptures report no gaining of his premortal knowledge as far as I know (if I am incorrect please let me know).

I'm not sure LDS Guy's unique definition of piercing the veil is valid, especially in light of the very wording of Ether 3.

And because of the knowledge of this man he could not be kept from beholding within the veil; and he saw the finger of Jesus... Wherefore, having this perfect knowledge of God, he could not be kept from within the veil; therefore he saw Jesus; and he did minister unto him... And when the Lord had said these words, he showed unto the brother of Jared all the inhabitants of the earth which had been, and also all that would be; and he withheld them not from his sight, even unto the ends of the earth. For he had said unto him in times before, that if he would believe in him that he could show unto him all things

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mercyngrace    959

Can you explain further what you mean here? (Giving the benefit of the doubt that this isn't exactly what you intended to say)

Thunderfire, Alma 32 clearly teaches that we are supposed to progress from a desire to believe to faith and then to knowledge.

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TAO    577

I heard during General Conference Elder Bednar give his apostalic witness that Heavenly Father and Jesus live? What exactly does that mean? Is Elder Bednar claiming to have literally seen with his physical eyes our Heavently Father and Jesus? Or has he seen Them with his spiritual eyes?

Does an apostalic witness have more credit than a normal witness?

Hehe... we went over this in seminary today.

If I remember correctly, it's the duty of an apostle, actually. It is somewhere in Mark, I believe... apostles have a duty to declare and spread the word of the Lord loud and clear to all the nations or something along those lines =).

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Thunderfire    53

Thunderfire, Alma 32 clearly teaches that we are supposed to progress from a desire to believe to faith and then to knowledge.

I understand and thank you for the response. Yet this thread was on Apostolic witness and how that is unique from the rest. If the belief is that all of us can develop this type of witness then I can fully agree with the path of progression mentioned. I cannot agree with the comment that the Lord does not want people to know that he exists. In my opinion, that comment goes against more scripture passages than I care to list! :P

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LDS Guy 1986    38

I'm not sure LDS Guy's unique definition of piercing the veil is valid, especially in light of the very wording of Ether 3.

Not only did the Brother of Jared pierce the veil, many others did, and they saw with their eyes (physical, natural eyes) the same thing they had witness prior to piercing the veil with the eye of faith. See Ether 12:

LDS Guy, can you provide a reference or some contextual indication that transfiguration is what happened in these cases?

There is nothing unique about the definition, I never used the term piercing the veil as used in Ether 3, I am referring to Christ regaining his pre mortal memories in there entirety, not seeing a small piece like the Brother of Jarad and others have.

The problem is many time detractors rather take things out of context instead of looking at the things of merit, if I presented something unclearly I apologize, but it is even more disrespectful to take something lacking clarification and act like that refutes the merits of everything I presented.

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LDS Guy 1986    38

Thunderfire, Alma 32 clearly teaches that we are supposed to progress from a desire to believe to faith and then to knowledge.

But does it say that one will have a whole knowledge?

I do not think it does, the only person to receive a whole knowledge in the flesh was Jesus Christ, and we are all incapable of stepping into those shoes, and any that are arrogant to think they are, Woe unto them on the day of Christ's return.

No man but Christ have regained there premortal knowledge in mortality, the only ones to come close are his chosen Prophets so see small pieces specifically to fulfill the Will of the Lord.

To assume that we will have this ability in or of ourselves in mortality is to say that Christ is no different than anyone else, which is terrible blasphemy against the Lord. Luckily such blasphemy can be forgiven if one seeks to repent, only Christ and his prophets gains any physical knowledge of Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ in this life, all of us can gain a spiritual knowledge though the Holy Ghost by faith, but unless we are called as a prophet of the lord, we will not regain our physical knowledge till we pass thorough the veil or the second coming whichever comes first.

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LDS Guy 1986    38

I understand and thank you for the response. Yet this thread was on Apostolic witness and how that is unique from the rest. If the belief is that all of us can develop this type of witness then I can fully agree with the path of progression mentioned. I cannot agree with the comment that the Lord does not want people to know that he exists. In my opinion, that comment goes against more scripture passages than I care to list! :P

Well good thing the only person to bring that up was you then.

No one here has said that the Lord doesn't want people to know that he exists, all anyone has said is this mortal life, we are to know through faith by the Holy Ghost and not have a physical knowledge of his existence, which means we will not see Heavenly Father or the Lord Jesus Christ in mortality unless the are called as a prophet of God, once we pass through the veil we regain our pre mortal knowledge of our existence with Heavenly Father and will see him again if we are worthy. So once we pass through the veil we have our phyiscal knowledge, but not till then.

The problem is so many think that God only see's our short mortal lives as a significant period of time, the Lord operates on an eternal clock, that doesn't begin or end, it is the proud arrogance of men to think that God will work within the time frame they want him to. God will reveal all in HIS time, which for us means many things will only be revealed after we have passed through the veil or Christ returns to reign on the Earth.

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Thunderfire    53

No one here has said that the Lord doesn't want people to know that he exists, (snip)

The Lord doesn't want people to know he exists he wants people to have the faith to believe he exists, our faith is how be obtain eternal life.

Well, you did say it and I humbly disagree.

In my opinion this becomes a self fulfilling message. If someone believes it is impossible to develop this type of Apostolic witness then they will never have this type of testimony.

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Questing Beast    336
...has either aged considerably from the encounter or been greatly weakened by the encounter.

Aged by a vision of God? I never heard of that one, except in DeMille, where Chuck Heston returns with his hair and beard all whitened. Are you sure your "sources" are only the scriptures?

As for being weakened from experiencing a vision: Joseph Smith awoke on his back gazing into heaven after the first vision. Yet neither he nor Oliver Cowdery seem to have experienced the slightest difficulty following the multiple visitations in the Kirtland Temple, beginning with the Lord himself....

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Nathair/|\    677

Well, you did say it and I humbly disagree.

In my opinion this becomes a self fulfilling message. If someone believes it is impossible to develop this type of Apostolic witness then they will never have this type of testimony.

Exactly!

27Wherefore, my beloved brethren, have miracles ceased because Christ hath ascended into heaven, and hath sat down on the right hand of God, to claim of the Father his rights of mercy which he hath upon the children of men? 28For he hath answered the ends of the law, and he claimeth all those who have faith in him; and they who have faith in him will cleave unto every good thing; wherefore he advocateth the cause of the children of men; and he dwelleth eternally in the heavens.

29And because he hath done this, my beloved brethren, have miracles ceased? Behold I say unto you, Nay; neither have angels ceased to minister unto the children of men.

So, the question is, are ya gonna damn yourself with self imposed artificial limitations or are ya gonna step up and realize that you have no limitations?

Mark 9:23

23 Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jBHu_KYrOEE

Yours under the infinite oaks,

Nathair /|\

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LDS Guy 1986    38

As for being weakened from experiencing a vision: Joseph Smith awoke on his back gazing into heaven after the first vision. Yet neither he nor Oliver Cowdery seem to have experienced the slightest difficulty following the multiple visitations in the Kirtland Temple, beginning with the Lord himself....

So in your world because someone doesn't specifically records every fine metaphysical detail of a celestial event that must mean it didn't happen?

Did they say that they were unaffected and in the exact same physical state after as they were in before?

Or is a pot calling a kettle black?

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Nathair/|\    677

So in your world because someone doesn't specifically records every fine metaphysical detail of a celestial event that must mean it didn't happen?

Did they say that they were unaffected and in the exact same physical state after as they were in before?

Or is a pot calling a kettle black?

Wasn't there a time when Joseph and Sidney were receiving revelation and Sidney was worn out but Joseph was still fresh?

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LDS Guy 1986    38

Well, you did say it and I humbly disagree.

In my opinion this becomes a self fulfilling message. If someone believes it is impossible to develop this type of Apostolic witness then they will never have this type of testimony.

Well it is a great thing that the only person to make this statement is you, because all I said is that it will not happen for the overwhelming majority of us in this period of mortality.

If the Lord reveals otherwise then so be it then, but all we can do is go forward in faith with what we have knowing that while we most likely will never see the lord in the flesh while we walk the Earth we will see him in the flesh in the afterlife, and remember our labors with in the pre mortal existence.

You appear to need to expand your scope a bit, your narrow mindedness has constantly prevented you from understanding the Gospel truth that life isn't only restricted to this period of mortality. We lived eternally before this life and will continue to live eternally after this life in one of several eternal states.

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LDS Guy 1986    38

Wasn't there a time when Joseph and Sidney were receiving revelation and Sidney was worn out but Joseph was still fresh?

What does this have anything to do with Kirtland at all?

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LeSellers    820
Wasn't there a time when Joseph and Sidney were receiving revelation and Sidney was worn out but Joseph was still fresh?
Joseph would, at intervals, say: "What do I see?" as one might say while looking out the window and beholding what all in the room could not see. Then he would relate what he had seen or what he was looking at.

Then Sidney replied, "I see the same."

Presently Sidney would say, "What do I see?" and would repeat what he had seen or was seeing.

And Joseph would reply, "I see the same."

This manner of conversation was repeated at short intervals to the end of the vision, and during the whole time not a word was spoken by any other person. Not a sound or motion was made by anyone but Joseph and Sidney, and it seemed to me that they never moved a joint or limb during the time I was there, which I think was over an hour, and to the end of the vision.

Joseph sat firmly and calmly all the time in the midst of a magnificant glory, but Sidney sat limp and pale, apparently as limber as a rag, observing which, Joseph remarked, smilingly. "Sidney is not used to it as I am."

Enjoy,

Lehi

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Thunderfire    53

Well it is a great thing that the only person to make this statement is you, because all I said is that it will not happen for the overwhelming majority of us in this period of mortality.

I agree that this type of witness will escape the majority of people! Not that all can't achieve this type of witness, but that they are taught to not expect and pursue this type of witness. The question becomes if we want to remain ordinary or become extraordinary in our witness of our Eternal Christ?

You appear to need to expand your scope a bit, your narrow mindedness has constantly prevented you from understanding the Gospel truth that life isn't only restricted to this period of mortality.

I often wonder about the pride of man which keeps us from admitting our errors. So who is narrow minded? The one who has not seen and claims this is truth that it is impossible to achieve, or the one who does see and testifies of this promise made manifest?

There is nothing narrow minded of believing in and living the testimony of truth resident within Apostolic witness. In my opinion, it is also false to entertain the notion that the world to come is not a continuation of this life on earth. The promise of restoration was far more than a mere church denomination coming to the earth, it was the door opening for heaven to again come to earth!

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mercyngrace    959

There is nothing unique about the definition, I never used the term piercing the veil as used in Ether 3, I am referring to Christ regaining his pre mortal memories in there entirety, not seeing a small piece like the Brother of Jarad and others have.

The problem is many time detractors rather take things out of context instead of looking at the things of merit, if I presented something unclearly I apologize, but it is even more disrespectful to take something lacking clarification and act like that refutes the merits of everything I presented.

LDS Guy,

No disrespect was intended. In fact, I didn't even address you.

Again from Ether 12:

the Lord could not withhold anything from his sight; wherefore he showed him all things

The account in Ether even says that the Brother of Jared was "redeemed from the Fall".

Now you may dispute what that means or you can do what I ask and put up a reference that indicates the BoJ was transfigured. If I missed something in the scriptures, I'd like to know - I'm well aware that I don't know everything. So answer the CFR for evidence of transfiguration and quit attributing nefarious reasons to a straightforward comment.

Thanks,

MnG

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mercyngrace    959

But does it say that one will have a whole knowledge?

I do not think it does, the only person to receive a whole knowledge in the flesh was Jesus Christ, and we are all incapable of stepping into those shoes, and any that are arrogant to think they are, Woe unto them on the day of Christ's return.

No man but Christ have regained there premortal knowledge in mortality, the only ones to come close are his chosen Prophets so see small pieces specifically to fulfill the Will of the Lord.

To assume that we will have this ability in or of ourselves in mortality is to say that Christ is no different than anyone else, which is terrible blasphemy against the Lord. Luckily such blasphemy can be forgiven if one seeks to repent, only Christ and his prophets gains any physical knowledge of Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ in this life, all of us can gain a spiritual knowledge though the Holy Ghost by faith, but unless we are called as a prophet of the lord, we will not regain our physical knowledge till we pass thorough the veil or the second coming whichever comes first.

The goal as described in Alma 32 is to acquire a "perfect knowledge".

Wrest that as ye will.

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mercyngrace    959

LDS Guy, can you provide a reference or some contextual indication that transfiguration is what happened in these cases?

LDS Guy,

No disrespect was intended. In fact, I didn't even address you.

Again from Ether 12:

the Lord could not withhold anything from his sight; wherefore he showed him all things

The account in Ether even says that the Brother of Jared was "redeemed from the Fall".

Now you may dispute what that means or you can do what I ask and put up a reference that indicates the BoJ was transfigured. If I missed something in the scriptures, I'd like to know - I'm well aware that I don't know everything. So answer the CFR for evidence of transfiguration and quit attributing nefarious reasons to a straightforward comment.

Thanks,

MnG

Bumping so LDS Guy can respond to my CFR.

If anyone else has a reference for the Brother of Jared as a case of transfiguration, I'd be very interested in it!

Thanks.

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LDSToronto    175

I heard during General Conference Elder Bednar give his apostalic witness that Heavenly Father and Jesus live? What exactly does that mean? Is Elder Bednar claiming to have literally seen with his physical eyes our Heavently Father and Jesus? Or has he seen Them with his spiritual eyes?

Does an apostalic witness have more credit than a normal witness?

No, an apostolic witness does not have more credit than a normal witness. An apostolic witness, or a special witness, refers to jurisdiction. That is, an apostolic witness is born to the world, not just to an individual. From the Bible Dictionary - "The calling of an apostle is to be a special witness of the name of Jesus Christ in all the world, particularly of his divinity and of his bodily resurrection from the dead"

McConkie further wrote - "This apostleship carries the responsibility of proclaiming the gospel in all the world and also of administering the affairs of the Church"

Elder Bednar, in a live session I attended some years back, explained that a special witness is one who has authority to bear witness of the divinity of Jesus Christ to the entire world, and to bind that testimony to the world.

However, none of this means that an apostolic witness has any more credit than a witness born by an everyday. It does not mean that this person has seen Christ, either with spiritual or physical eyes. It simply means he's been called to witness to the world.

If I'm not mistake, missionaries are also set apart to bear apostolic witness, aren't they? I could be wrong, but I thought that was why they bear the title of 'Elder'.

H.

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zerinus    301

Bumping so LDS Guy can respond to my CFR.

If anyone else has a reference for the Brother of Jared as a case of transfiguration, I'd be very interested in it!

Thanks.

I think he might have been referring to these verses:

D&C 67
:

10 And again, verily I say unto you that it is your privilege, and a promise I give unto you that have been ordained unto this ministry, that inasmuch as you strip yourselves from jealousies and fears, and humble yourselves before me, for ye are not sufficiently humble, the veil shall be rent and you shall see me and know that I am—not with the carnal neither natural mind, but with the spiritual.

11 For no man has seen God at any time in the flesh, except quickened by the Spirit of God.

12 Neither can any natural man abide the presence of God, neither after the carnal mind.

Moses 1
:

11 But now mine own eyes have beheld God; but not my natural, but my spiritual eyes, for my natural eyes could not have beheld; for I should have withered and died in his presence; but his glory was upon me; and I beheld his face, for I was transfigured before him.

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mercyngrace    959

I think he might have been referring to these verses:

D&C 67
:

10 And again, verily I say unto you that it is your privilege, and a promise I give unto you that have been ordained unto this ministry, that inasmuch as you strip yourselves from jealousies and fears, and humble yourselves before me, for ye are not sufficiently humble, the veil shall be rent and you shall see me and know that I am—not with the carnal neither natural mind, but with the spiritual.

11 For no man has seen God at any time in the flesh, except quickened by the Spirit of God.

12 Neither can any natural man abide the presence of God, neither after the carnal mind.

Moses 1
:

11 But now mine own eyes have beheld God; but not my natural, but my spiritual eyes, for my natural eyes could not have beheld; for I should have withered and died in his presence; but his glory was upon me; and I beheld his face, for I was transfigured before him.

So God has not appeared to man in the flesh, men have only been transfigured?

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David Bokovoy    394

As the scriptures tell us no one can see Heavenly Father or Jesus Christ or any celestial body with there physical eyes. When someone views such heavenly messengers they do it through a process called transfiguration, where they are temporarily given the ability to view celestial bodies and converse with them as one converses with any other person.

I do not know if Elder Bednar has or has not had such an experience, thought it is very possible that he could. If he had I doubt that he would speak of it in General Conference openly, as the scriptures also show when Christ showed his Apostles in the NT anything that gave compelling evidence of his divine nature he always commanded them to not speak of it again. In fact almost every time he performed a miracle in the New Testament, he asked that the people not tell anyone about it.

The Lord doesn't want people to know he exists he wants people to have the faith to believe he exists, our faith is how be obtain eternal life.

I hold a different view. I agree with the perspective taught by Elder Bruce R. McConkie:

"Apostles and prophets simply serve as patterns and examples to show all men what they may receive if they are true and faithful. There is nothing an apostle can receive that is not available to every elder in the kingdom. As we have heretofore quoted, from the Prophet's sermon on the Second Comforter: 'God hath not revealed anything to Joseph, but what he will make known unto the Twelve, and even the least saint may know all things as fast as he is able to bear them.' (Teachings, p. 149.) It follows that everything stated by Elder Oliver Cowdery in his charge to the apostles could also be given as a charge to all elders. Every elder is entitled and expected to seek and obtain all the spiritual blessings of the gospel, including the crowning blessing of seeing the Lord face to face" Bruce R. McConkie, The Promised Messiah, 595.

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