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Tribunal

Apostalic Witness

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I heard during General Conference Elder Bednar give his apostalic witness that Heavenly Father and Jesus live? What exactly does that mean? Is Elder Bednar claiming to have literally seen with his physical eyes our Heavently Father and Jesus? Or has he seen Them with his spiritual eyes?

Does an apostalic witness have more credit than a normal witness?

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Does an apostalic witness have more credit than a normal witness?

Yes, an apostolic witness has more weight, they are the called leaders of the Lord, they hold the Keys of the Kingdom.

I heard during General Conference Elder Bednar give his apostalic witness that Heavenly Father and Jesus live? What exactly does that mean?

It means that he invokes his priesthood authority as a Apostle of Jesus Christ to proclaim the eternal truth that Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ are real beings who live and work as we do. That Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ, are not simply metaphorical or spiritual creatures, but are actual living beings that exist right now.

Is Elder Bednar claiming to have literally seen with his physical eyes our Heavently Father and Jesus? Or has he seen Them with his spiritual eyes?

As the scriptures tell us no one can see Heavenly Father or Jesus Christ or any celestial body with there physical eyes. When someone views such heavenly messengers they do it through a process called transfiguration, where they are temporarily given the ability to view celestial bodies and converse with them as one converses with any other person.

I do not know if Elder Bednar has or has not had such an experience, thought it is very possible that he could. If he had I doubt that he would speak of it in General Conference openly, as the scriptures also show when Christ showed his Apostles in the NT anything that gave compelling evidence of his divine nature he always commanded them to not speak of it again. In fact almost every time he performed a miracle in the New Testament, he asked that the people not tell anyone about it.

The Lord doesn't want people to know he exists he wants people to have the faith to believe he exists, our faith is how be obtain eternal life.

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The Lord doesn't want people to know he exists he wants people to have the faith to believe he exists, our faith is how be obtain eternal life.

This surprises me. Is it really what you meant? I understand that we are supposed to have faith, but I thought we were supposed to pursue that faith until it became knowledge. I thought Joseph Smith taught that we could all have the same revelations (or something along those lines) as he had, and I thought, in particular, that we were all promised that we could see God ourselves, while in mortality, if we lived to the standard required for such an experience. If all of this is correct, it seems to me that God would want all of his children to have those same experiences.

As far as the apostolic witness, my understanding is that as an apostle, Elder Bednar specific calling is to witness of Christ--to be a special witness. In that case, his witness is special simply by virtue of his calling. I don't know, however, that we can claim that he knows the truth of Christ's existence and his role as Savior with any more force than other people who know it.

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This surprises me. Is it really what you meant? I understand that we are supposed to have faith, but I thought we were supposed to pursue that faith until it became knowledge. I thought Joseph Smith taught that we could all have the same revelations (or something along those lines) as he had, and I thought, in particular, that we were all promised that we could see God ourselves, while in mortality, if we lived to the standard required for such an experience. If all of this is correct, it seems to me that God would want all of his children to have those same experiences.

Yes, I meant what I said, Christ has never wanted us to have a physical knowledge of him and Heavenly Father, he has always wanted us to have faith, not knowledge. Through faith we can gain a spiritual knowledge of him, and this is the knowledge that we are to see. We are not suppose to have a physical knowledge, once you have a physical knowledge of the existence of the Lord you are capable of becoming a Son of Perdition, if you refuse to follow the commandments, and submit to the will of Heavenly Father.

As far as the apostolic witness, my understanding is that as an apostle, Elder Bednar specific calling is to witness of Christ--to be a special witness. In that case, his witness is special simply by virtue of his calling. I don't know, however, that we can claim that he knows the truth of Christ's existence and his role as Savior with any more force than other people who know it.

I agree with you, all I said is that as an Apostle it is possible (not that it happened or was even likely to happen) for an Apostle to receive such knowledge because scripturally the Lord has revealed himself many times to his prophets and apostles.

An Apostle is foreordained to be a leader of Christ's Church, should he live worthy enough to justify this calling in mortality he is called to the Apostleship. So seeing that the Apostleship is foreordained to lead the Church, one can logically conclude that they had shown talents and valor in the premortal world that would make them more likely to recieve such visitations as Apostles. They are the prophets, seers, and revelators of the lord, there witness has the revelatory and prophetic power of the Lord behind it, so obviously there witness had more persuasion (since the priesthood doesn't operate by force) than other's witness.

That doesn't mean these other witnesses are inferior than the Apostolic Witness, it only means that these other witnesses are not from a prophet of God.

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We are not suppose to have a physical knowledge, once you have a physical knowledge of the existence of the Lord you are capable of becoming a Son of Perdition, if you refuse to follow the commandments, and submit to the will of Heavenly Father.
And yet the scriptures mention a few cases where this occurs and the individual is spoken of with the highest approval, such as in the case of the Brother of Jared.

My interpretation is that God desires us to begin from the position of faith to first establish a spiritual basis for our knowledge and than continue to work for a fuller knowledge because if we simply allow ourselves to be satisfied with a spiritual conviction and rest our efforts, that conviction will eventually begin to deteriorate. OTOH, if we continue to nurture our spiritual faith through the pursuit of a stronger witness, than it is possible that if it is appropriate we will receive a full knowledge such as the Brother of Jared did.

I don't see God withholding the knowledge from someone who is worthy to have it in order to prevent giving them the chance to become a son of perdition, that would be infringing on their moral and spiritual agency and development in my view. Certainly he would not give the knowledge to someone who is not ready for it though (and perhaps that is what you meant).

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Do a 'google' on Apostolic Gnosis.

HiJolly

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I don't see God withholding the knowledge from someone who is worthy to have it in order to prevent giving them the chance to become a son of perdition, that would be infringing on their moral and spiritual agency and development in my view. Certainly he would not give the knowledge to someone who is not ready for it though (and perhaps that is what you meant).

Well I disagree completely, Jared is not a Son or Perdition he was chastised not for any transgression but for following habits that would lead to transgression if he continued, so your support is baseless.

The scriptures do say though that we are to believe in faith not be sight, I also agree that when people are ready they will see the Lord in the flesh but except for the exceptions with the Prophets no one will be ready until the Second Coming, IMO.

I know that in our pride and arrogance many of us will feel ready but this is why I am so glad that we have a Lord that loves us so much, he will not allow us to destroy ourselves so pointlessly as to allow us to see him in the flesh while we are unprepared.

This is why only the those of the deepest faith can be transfigured, not because God can't transfigure people of less faith, but because doing so would most certainly make them a Son of Perdition. We are not ready, and IMO no man will ever be ready in this period of mortality, the only exception is the prophet's there callings made them ready to take small peeks beyond the veil, and even then most were either drastically aged or so weakened they could barely move after the experience.

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LDS Guy, reading the D&C gives us the definition of "calling and election", "made sure", even. It includes SEEING, i.e. having a theophany as Joseph Smith did. It is the ultimate spiritual experience; and only from this can an individual descend to become a "son of perdition". Nothing less than this knowing can produce such a sinful rejection of the Father and the Son.

So I believe that your assertion that "faith" is the only knowing God wants us to have is only good for the majority and does not apply to those who have attained to this greater knowledge of having been literally in the presence of God....

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Well I disagree completely, Jared is not a Son or Perdition he was chastised not for any transgression but for following habits that would lead to transgression if he continued, so your support is baseless.

I am clueless as to how you've interpreted my comment since I was providing support for the idea that there are those in the scriptures that have seen God in a physical sense and NOT become sons of perdition and therefore there is no need to assume that God is restricting physical visions for this reason (to prevent people from becoming SoPs) so I am just going to let it drop.
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Does an apostalic witness have more credit than a normal witness?

From D&C 107: 23, it is his calling to be a

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LDS Guy, reading the D&C gives us the definition of "calling and election", "made sure", even. It includes SEEING, i.e. having a theophany as Joseph Smith did. It is the ultimate spiritual experience; and only from this can an individual descend to become a "son of perdition". Nothing less than this knowing can produce such a sinful rejection of the Father and the Son.

So I believe that your assertion that "faith" is the only knowing God wants us to have is only good for the majority and does not apply to those who have attained to this greater knowledge of having been literally in the presence of God....

I agree also, as I said before, certain men and women were foreordained to be called as prophets, they alone have the calling to be able to see the HF or JC in the flesh and live, the only time they see the Lord is during moments of transfiguration where they are temporarily celestialized to observe this witness for explicit will of the Lord to come forth as he commands.

Had they not been transfigured they would of all died, also the Lord only reveals himself to these few prophets because they were prepared for this calling in the pre mortal existence. We are not suppose to have a physical knowledge of Heavenly Father, we are suppose to rely on our faith so we can be properly tested to gain eternal life, the Lord only reveals himself to the prophets he foreordained in premortal existence.

We will see the Lord in the flesh, at the Second Coming, not before IMO, unless we are called as a prophet of God.

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I agree also, as I said before, certain men and women were foreordained to be called as prophets, they alone have the calling to be able to see the HF or JC in the flesh and live, the only time they see the Lord is during moments of transfiguration where they are temporarily celestialized to observe this witness for explicit will of the Lord to come forth as he commands.

Had they not been transfigured they would of all died, also the Lord only reveals himself to these few prophets because they were prepared for this calling in the pre mortal existence. We are not suppose to have a physical knowledge of Heavenly Father, we are suppose to rely on our faith so we can be properly tested to gain eternal life, the Lord only reveals himself to the prophets he foreordained in premortal existence.

We will see the Lord in the flesh, at the Second Coming, not before IMO, unless we are called as a prophet of God.

God hath not revealed anything to Joseph, but what He will make known unto the Twelve, and even the least Saint may know all things as fast as he is able to bear them.--Joseph Smith

History of the Church, 3:380

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I am clueless as to how you've interpreted my comment since I was providing support for the idea that there are those in the scriptures that have seen God in a physical sense and NOT become sons of perdition and therefore there is no need to assume that God is restricting physical visions for this reason (to prevent people from becoming SoPs) so I am just going to let it drop.

His response really threw me because I have no idea how he got there. But I agree with your interpretation.

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God hath not revealed anything to Joseph, but what He will make known unto the Twelve, and even the least Saint may know all things as fast as he is able to bear them.--Joseph Smith

History of the Church, 3:380

Exactly. This LDS Guy needs to take a deep breath & then read his scriptures.

HiJolly

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Exactly. This LDS Guy needs to take a deep breath & then read his scriptures.

HiJolly

Yeah, I am starting to think a cage match between Foxtrot44, Hughes and him would be quite entertaining.

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God hath not revealed anything to Joseph, but what He will make known unto the Twelve, and even the least Saint may know all things as fast as he is able to bear them.--Joseph Smith

History of the Church, 3:380

My point is none of us are able to bear these things as mortals, with very few exceptions none of us will be ready for this in mortality, and I believe that this is point of the Plan of Salvation. We will receive our physical knowledge one day, but only after we pierce (or in almost everyone's case pass away and pass through the veil) we will not recieve that knowledge.

Each of us already have physical knowledge of Heavenly Father remember that each of us lived in his presence, so it's not as much a point of receiving any new knowledge as being able to pierce the veil and receive the knowledge of our pre mortal existence. So far the only person I know of that did that pierced the veil was Christ, everyone else has to wait till they either pass away or the second coming.

Unless you imply that anyone can do what Christ did?

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Exactly. This LDS Guy needs to take a deep breath & then read his scriptures.

HiJolly

I read my scriptures plenty and all my posts are based in the scriptures, unless I state otherwise. If you read my posts I offer plenty of support and explanations.

Taking a statement out of context from the History of the Church is not compelling evidence to replace the doctrine of the Church.

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I read my scriptures plenty and all my posts are based in the scriptures, unless I state otherwise. If you read my posts I offer plenty of support and explanations.

Taking a statement out of context from the History of the Church is not compelling evidence to replace the doctrine of the Church.

You're characterizing the Second Comforter as an appearance that only comes to General Authorities. That's flat out incorrect.

We are admonished in the D&C to seek the face of the Savior. I know that some who so seek, find.

HiJolly

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So far the only person I know of that did that pierced the veil was Christ, everyone else has to wait till they either pass away or the second coming.

Didn't the brother of Jared, essentially, pierce the veil?

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You're characterizing the Second Comforter as an appearance that only comes to General Authorities. That's flat out incorrect.

We are admonished in the D&C to seek the face of the Savior. I know that some who so seek, find.

HiJolly

No, I said that we are not ready to see the face of Heavenly Father or Christ in this lifetime, but we will see him again and each of us has knowledge of his existence covered by the veil. So while some are called to receive a glimpse due to there specific callings, the rest of us need to endure till the end in faith to obtain our physical knowledge.

Enduring in faith till the end is a requirement of eternal life, I am not saying that no one outside of the GA's can see the lord in the flesh, nor am I saying that those who desire to see the Lord in this life are unable to do so.

What I am saying is that outside of those foreordained to bring forth the dispensations of the Gospel, few if none are prepared to see HF or JC while in the flesh. Even those called to see heavenly messengers or even HF or JC, are only able to barely survive the encounter, in almost all recorded cases anyone that has seen the lord has either aged considerably from the encounter or been greatly weakened by the encounter.

We are not meant to be in the presence of God while still covered in our sins, only through transfiguration are morals capable of surviving an encounter with HF or JC, and that is only done in cases of prophets doing the errand of the lord.

So if you take my comments in context, you would see what I am saying and how the scriptures support it.

To gain a physical knowledge of the lord requires one of two things:

1) Transfiguration which historically only happens to prophets doing the will of the Lord

2) To pierce through the veil and gain our premortal memories (which only Christ has done)

I have yet to met someone that isn't Christ or a prophet of God that has fulfilled either or these requirements, because it is not mortally possible.

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Didn't the brother of Jared, essentially, pierce the veil?

I believe he was transfigured because of the depth of his faith, the scriptures report no gaining of his premortal knowledge as far as I know (if I am incorrect please let me know).

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2) To pierce through the veil and gain our premortal memories (which only Christ has done)

I see what you mean when you say, "pierce through the veil," and I take back my statement about the brother of Jared WRT your usage.

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You're characterizing the Second Comforter as an appearance that only comes to General Authorities. That's flat out incorrect.

We are admonished in the D&C to seek the face of the Savior. I know that some who so seek, find.

HiJolly

Indeed they do.

From the D&C Institute Manual:

Notes and Commentary

D&C 93:1 . A Promise to Those Who Forsake Their Sins

All God

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No, I said that we are not ready to see the face of Heavenly Father or Christ in this lifetime, but we will see him again and each of us has knowledge of his existence covered by the veil. So while some are called to receive a glimpse due to there specific callings, the rest of us need to endure till the end in faith to obtain our physical knowledge.

Enduring in faith till the end is a requirement of eternal life, I am not saying that no one outside of the GA's can see the lord in the flesh, nor am I saying that those who desire to see the Lord in this life are unable to do so.

What I am saying is that outside of those foreordained to bring forth the dispensations of the Gospel, few if none are prepared to see HF or JC while in the flesh. Even those called to see heavenly messengers or even HF or JC, are only able to barely survive the encounter, in almost all recorded cases anyone that has seen the lord has either aged considerably from the encounter or been greatly weakened by the encounter.

We are not meant to be in the presence of God while still covered in our sins, only through transfiguration are morals capable of surviving an encounter with HF or JC, and that is only done in cases of prophets doing the errand of the lord.

So if you take my comments in context, you would see what I am saying and how the scriptures support it.

To gain a physical knowledge of the lord requires one of two things:

1) Transfiguration which historically only happens to prophets doing the will of the Lord

2) To pierce through the veil and gain our premortal memories (which only Christ has done)

I have yet to met someone that isn't Christ or a prophet of God that has fulfilled either or these requirements, because it is not mortally possible.

In a general sense a prophet is anyone who has a testimony of Jesus Christ by the Holy Ghost, as in Num. 11:25

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So, in a sense, you are right, because everybody has a right to be a prophet within their own stewardship.

Yours under the universal oaks,

Nathair /|\

Woe, did you note the "in general" part, this is referring to the fact that all can receive revelation and prophecy for themselves, but when I referred to a prophet in my explanation I was only referring to a prophet called to reveal the will of the Lord to the entire world.

Also note that your definition talks not about a physical knowledge of Christ but faith in Christ through the Holy Ghost.

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