53 replies to this topic

[mfbukowski]

Another total speculation:

I have made jewelery items by taking a flat piece of copper, and taking some lead wire (solder) and then heating the copper, the design partially melts and fuses into the copper.

Lead wire on lead plates would probably work even better, and you would only have to get the temperature of the lead plate up to 800 degrees or so.

These designs look to me like they were possibly done this way, or by arranging lead powder, wire or fragments which were later fused into the plate

So it is not necessary to think that they were stamped.   This might also indicate that these are unique and not a "publication".

[Mike Reed]

Daniel Peterson, on 31 March 2011 - 03:58 PM, said:

Just received a note, indirectly, from Peter Thonemann at Oxford.  He presents a pretty good case that the documents are modern forgeries.

Thanks Dan.

[Sevenbak]

Mola Ram Suda Ram, on 31 March 2011 - 08:48 AM, said:

Finally, we can put to rest that anti-mormon myth that ancient people wrote on metal plates.

If only these had come out in JS day he would not have been met with so much critisim about people writing on metal plates.




On another note, these are an interesting find.

But these aren't the only plates that have been discovered that the ancients wrote on.  The anti's know about the others... they just don't care.  It doesn't change their mold.

[volgadon]

Mike Reed, on 31 March 2011 - 05:00 PM, said:

Thanks Dan.

Seconded.

[Bill Hamblin]

Here are the photos associated with Thronemann's analysis mentioned by Dan:

 IMG_0532.JPG   151.64K   35 downloads




 IMG_0556.JPG   194.87K   34 downloads



 IMG_0557.JPG   206.5K   24 downloads

[mfbukowski]

I have a small collection of Roman and Greek coins, and those profiles are very much in the style of those coins so much that they might be duplicates or impressions of coins.  Maybe a little suspicious?  Probably could be taken either way.

Also, I am more convinced than ever that many of the letters were made by melting lead wire or something like it into the plates.   Some letters even show uneven "ripples" where the plate possibly moved slightly while the metal was still molten.   I have seen those effects in things I have made myself using that technique.

Just guessing of course.

[Sevenbak]

Bill Hamblin, on 31 March 2011 - 06:48 PM, said:

Here are the photos associated with Thronemann's analysis mentioned by Dan:

IMG_0532.JPG




IMG_0556.JPG



IMG_0557.JPG

After what Hoffman pulled, nothing would surprise me when it comes to hoaxes.  That said, I would love to see some hands on analysis done on these by experts, not simply relying on one person's position via photographs.  When it comes to epigraphy, there are always unknowns and nuances that need to be addressed.  The Book of Abraham should teach us that much.

[Bill Hamblin]

The other interesting thing about these is that they seem to be cast rather than etched.  That means if you got clay, you could press an image (coin, or something) into the clay, and modify it a bit in the clay.  Then cast the lead into the clay mold.  

It is all very odd.  Why would someone want to forge these types of things which seem to be a jumble of symbols and words?

[mfbukowski]

Bill Hamblin, on 31 March 2011 - 07:33 PM, said:

The other interesting thing about these is that they seem to be cast rather than etched.  That means if you got clay, you could press an image (coin, or something) into the clay, and modify it a bit in the clay.  Then cast the lead into the clay mold.  

It is all very odd.  Why would someone want to forge these types of things which seem to be a jumble of symbols and words?

It would have taken a tremendous amount of work.   Those possible "coin" images do look cast- and not that precisely, but on the other hand some of the images are very crisply defined- it seems to me that there is more than one technique going, on each one.

[Bill Hamblin]

mfbukowski, on 31 March 2011 - 07:48 PM, said:

It would have taken a tremendous amount of work.   Those possible "coin" images do look cast- and not that precisely, but on the other hand some of the images are very crisply defined- it seems to me that there is more than one technique going, on each one.

I agree.  I think some was pressed and some etched in the clay.

[Bill Hamblin]

Bukowski noted the heads look like coins.  I think I've found a match.  The head on the right is an Alexander coin.


 IMG_0557.jpg   18.83K   10 downloads

 ts (1).jpg   111.67K   9 downloads

[mfbukowski]

Bill Hamblin, on 31 March 2011 - 08:17 PM, said:

Bukowski noted the heads look like coins.  I think I've found a match.  The head on the right is an Alexander coin.


IMG_0557.jpg

ts (1).jpg

I was just looking at that image!

Edit: there are also crocodile coins- I was looking for a match

Edited by mfbukowski, 31 March 2011 - 08:21 PM.

[mfbukowski]

The more I look at that crocodile the more suspicious I become.

It looks too sinuous, too supple, too naturalistic and to show it emerging from the water like that- it looks too modern to me.

It's not like ancient crocodile images which tend to be very symmetrical.  

??

[Bill Hamblin]

mfbukowski, on 31 March 2011 - 08:30 PM, said:

The more I look at that crocodile the more suspicious I become.

It looks too sinuous, too supple, too naturalistic and to show it emerging from the water like that- it looks too modern to me.

It's not like ancient crocodile images which tend to be very symmetrical.  

??

I hate to say it, but that crocodile looks like one of those little plastic toys my grandsons like to play with.  It really does.  

Remember these plates are supposedly credit card size, so these would have to be small things to make the impressions on clay.

[Bill Hamblin]

 IMG_0556.jpg   12.23K   16 downloads

This big head looks just like a coin too.  You can faintly see the shadow of a ring of the edge of a coin around it.

I've seen magic cut gems that look like the chariot in the upper left.

[mfbukowski]

Bill Hamblin, on 31 March 2011 - 08:37 PM, said:

I've seen magic cut gems that look like the chariot in the upper left.

I KNOW I have seen that chariot image before I just can't place it.

[Bill Hamblin]

Here's the type of chariot scene that could be used for an impression.  

 13.signet_ring_small.jpg   9.48K   7 downloads

 O3Cf.jpg   95.42K   6 downloads

[mfbukowski]

Unfortunately I have not yet figured out how to post pictures here, but I found this page VERY interesting-  two images similar to those on that one plate- where? In none other than Janson- everyone's Art History 101 text.

[LifeOnaPlate]

Daniel Peterson, on 31 March 2011 - 03:58 PM, said:

Just received a note, indirectly, from Peter Thonemann at Oxford.  He presents a pretty good case that the documents are modern forgeries.



.

Thanks for this important update, Dan.

[bookofmormontruth]

If these are indeed forgeries, are the death threats fake too? Maybe to make the story more compelling?