Another total speculation:
I have made jewelery items by taking a flat piece of copper, and taking some lead wire (solder) and then heating the copper, the design partially melts and fuses into the copper.
Lead wire on lead plates would probably work even better, and you would only have to get the temperature of the lead plate up to 800 degrees or so.
These designs look to me like they were possibly done this way, or by arranging lead powder, wire or fragments which were later fused into the plate
So it is not necessary to think that they were stamped. This might also indicate that these are unique and not a "publication".
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#21
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Posted 31 March 2011 - 04:06 PM
"If physicalism is to be defended, the phenomenological features must themselves be given a physical account. But when we examine their subjective character it seems that such a result is impossible. The reason is that every subjective phenomenon is essentially connected with a single point of view, and it seems inevitable that an objective, physical theory will abandon that point of view." - Thomas Nagel, What Is It Like To Be a Bat?
"I see Religion as creating a language to speak of the divine and sacred. Since I see creating this language as a creative act, defining that language as a form of art makes sense to me especially as I don't see it as a random production, but one aimed at creating a certain view of heaven and earth, a living 'image' of God and Man and their story, past, present and future." - Calmoriah
"I see Religion as creating a language to speak of the divine and sacred. Since I see creating this language as a creative act, defining that language as a form of art makes sense to me especially as I don't see it as a random production, but one aimed at creating a certain view of heaven and earth, a living 'image' of God and Man and their story, past, present and future." - Calmoriah
#22
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Posted 31 March 2011 - 05:00 PM
Daniel Peterson, on 31 March 2011 - 03:58 PM, said:
Just received a note, indirectly, from Peter Thonemann at Oxford. He presents a pretty good case that the documents are modern forgeries.
Thanks Dan.
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I invite you to follow my Blog: Cultural Mormon Cafeteria
#23
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Posted 31 March 2011 - 06:35 PM
Mola Ram Suda Ram, on 31 March 2011 - 08:48 AM, said:
Finally, we can put to rest that anti-mormon myth that ancient people wrote on metal plates.
If only these had come out in JS day he would not have been met with so much critisim about people writing on metal plates.
On another note, these are an interesting find.
If only these had come out in JS day he would not have been met with so much critisim about people writing on metal plates.
On another note, these are an interesting find.
But these aren't the only plates that have been discovered that the ancients wrote on. The anti's know about the others... they just don't care. It doesn't change their mold.
Two great American Christian civilizations, the Jaredites and the Nephites, were swept off this land because they did not serve the God of the land, who is Jesus Christ. (Ether 2:12) What will become of our civilization?" - President Benson, October Conference, 1987
"It is my meditation all the day, and more than my meat and drink, to know how I shall make the Saints of God comprehend the visions that roll like an overflowing surge before my mind." - Joseph Smith
"It is my meditation all the day, and more than my meat and drink, to know how I shall make the Saints of God comprehend the visions that roll like an overflowing surge before my mind." - Joseph Smith
#24
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Posted 31 March 2011 - 06:44 PM
Mike Reed, on 31 March 2011 - 05:00 PM, said:
Thanks Dan.
Seconded.
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I assure you that it is you that is ignorant of ancient Judaism. Read the Bible instead of listening to your teachers who appose [sic] the bible. -Echo
i REALLY NEVER NEW YOU WAS A UNLEARNED PERSON. -Lucy Ann Harmon, a facebook anti-Mormon
I assure you that it is you that is ignorant of ancient Judaism. Read the Bible instead of listening to your teachers who appose [sic] the bible. -Echo
i REALLY NEVER NEW YOU WAS A UNLEARNED PERSON. -Lucy Ann Harmon, a facebook anti-Mormon
#25
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Posted 31 March 2011 - 06:48 PM
Here are the photos associated with Thronemann's analysis mentioned by Dan:
IMG_0532.JPG (151.64K)
Number of downloads: 35
IMG_0556.JPG (194.87K)
Number of downloads: 34
IMG_0557.JPG (206.5K)
Number of downloads: 24
IMG_0532.JPG (151.64K)
Number of downloads: 35
IMG_0556.JPG (194.87K)
Number of downloads: 34
IMG_0557.JPG (206.5K)
Number of downloads: 24
#26
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Posted 31 March 2011 - 07:16 PM
I have a small collection of Roman and Greek coins, and those profiles are very much in the style of those coins so much that they might be duplicates or impressions of coins. Maybe a little suspicious? Probably could be taken either way.
Also, I am more convinced than ever that many of the letters were made by melting lead wire or something like it into the plates. Some letters even show uneven "ripples" where the plate possibly moved slightly while the metal was still molten. I have seen those effects in things I have made myself using that technique.
Just guessing of course.
Also, I am more convinced than ever that many of the letters were made by melting lead wire or something like it into the plates. Some letters even show uneven "ripples" where the plate possibly moved slightly while the metal was still molten. I have seen those effects in things I have made myself using that technique.
Just guessing of course.
"If physicalism is to be defended, the phenomenological features must themselves be given a physical account. But when we examine their subjective character it seems that such a result is impossible. The reason is that every subjective phenomenon is essentially connected with a single point of view, and it seems inevitable that an objective, physical theory will abandon that point of view." - Thomas Nagel, What Is It Like To Be a Bat?
"I see Religion as creating a language to speak of the divine and sacred. Since I see creating this language as a creative act, defining that language as a form of art makes sense to me especially as I don't see it as a random production, but one aimed at creating a certain view of heaven and earth, a living 'image' of God and Man and their story, past, present and future." - Calmoriah
"I see Religion as creating a language to speak of the divine and sacred. Since I see creating this language as a creative act, defining that language as a form of art makes sense to me especially as I don't see it as a random production, but one aimed at creating a certain view of heaven and earth, a living 'image' of God and Man and their story, past, present and future." - Calmoriah
#27
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Posted 31 March 2011 - 07:20 PM
Bill Hamblin, on 31 March 2011 - 06:48 PM, said:
Here are the photos associated with Thronemann's analysis mentioned by Dan:
IMG_0532.JPG
IMG_0556.JPG
IMG_0557.JPG
IMG_0532.JPG IMG_0556.JPG IMG_0557.JPGAfter what Hoffman pulled, nothing would surprise me when it comes to hoaxes. That said, I would love to see some hands on analysis done on these by experts, not simply relying on one person's position via photographs. When it comes to epigraphy, there are always unknowns and nuances that need to be addressed. The Book of Abraham should teach us that much.
Two great American Christian civilizations, the Jaredites and the Nephites, were swept off this land because they did not serve the God of the land, who is Jesus Christ. (Ether 2:12) What will become of our civilization?" - President Benson, October Conference, 1987
"It is my meditation all the day, and more than my meat and drink, to know how I shall make the Saints of God comprehend the visions that roll like an overflowing surge before my mind." - Joseph Smith
"It is my meditation all the day, and more than my meat and drink, to know how I shall make the Saints of God comprehend the visions that roll like an overflowing surge before my mind." - Joseph Smith
#28
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Posted 31 March 2011 - 07:33 PM
The other interesting thing about these is that they seem to be cast rather than etched. That means if you got clay, you could press an image (coin, or something) into the clay, and modify it a bit in the clay. Then cast the lead into the clay mold.
It is all very odd. Why would someone want to forge these types of things which seem to be a jumble of symbols and words?
It is all very odd. Why would someone want to forge these types of things which seem to be a jumble of symbols and words?
#29
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Posted 31 March 2011 - 07:48 PM
Bill Hamblin, on 31 March 2011 - 07:33 PM, said:
The other interesting thing about these is that they seem to be cast rather than etched. That means if you got clay, you could press an image (coin, or something) into the clay, and modify it a bit in the clay. Then cast the lead into the clay mold.
It is all very odd. Why would someone want to forge these types of things which seem to be a jumble of symbols and words?
It is all very odd. Why would someone want to forge these types of things which seem to be a jumble of symbols and words?
It would have taken a tremendous amount of work. Those possible "coin" images do look cast- and not that precisely, but on the other hand some of the images are very crisply defined- it seems to me that there is more than one technique going, on each one.
"If physicalism is to be defended, the phenomenological features must themselves be given a physical account. But when we examine their subjective character it seems that such a result is impossible. The reason is that every subjective phenomenon is essentially connected with a single point of view, and it seems inevitable that an objective, physical theory will abandon that point of view." - Thomas Nagel, What Is It Like To Be a Bat?
"I see Religion as creating a language to speak of the divine and sacred. Since I see creating this language as a creative act, defining that language as a form of art makes sense to me especially as I don't see it as a random production, but one aimed at creating a certain view of heaven and earth, a living 'image' of God and Man and their story, past, present and future." - Calmoriah
"I see Religion as creating a language to speak of the divine and sacred. Since I see creating this language as a creative act, defining that language as a form of art makes sense to me especially as I don't see it as a random production, but one aimed at creating a certain view of heaven and earth, a living 'image' of God and Man and their story, past, present and future." - Calmoriah
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Posted 31 March 2011 - 08:01 PM
mfbukowski, on 31 March 2011 - 07:48 PM, said:
It would have taken a tremendous amount of work. Those possible "coin" images do look cast- and not that precisely, but on the other hand some of the images are very crisply defined- it seems to me that there is more than one technique going, on each one.
I agree. I think some was pressed and some etched in the clay.
#31
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Posted 31 March 2011 - 08:17 PM
Bukowski noted the heads look like coins. I think I've found a match. The head on the right is an Alexander coin.
IMG_0557.jpg (18.83K)
Number of downloads: 10
ts (1).jpg (111.67K)
Number of downloads: 9
IMG_0557.jpg (18.83K)
Number of downloads: 10
ts (1).jpg (111.67K)
Number of downloads: 9
#32
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Posted 31 March 2011 - 08:19 PM
Bill Hamblin, on 31 March 2011 - 08:17 PM, said:
Bukowski noted the heads look like coins. I think I've found a match. The head on the right is an Alexander coin.
IMG_0557.jpg
ts (1).jpg
IMG_0557.jpg ts (1).jpgI was just looking at that image!
Edit: there are also crocodile coins- I was looking for a match
Edited by mfbukowski, 31 March 2011 - 08:21 PM.
"If physicalism is to be defended, the phenomenological features must themselves be given a physical account. But when we examine their subjective character it seems that such a result is impossible. The reason is that every subjective phenomenon is essentially connected with a single point of view, and it seems inevitable that an objective, physical theory will abandon that point of view." - Thomas Nagel, What Is It Like To Be a Bat?
"I see Religion as creating a language to speak of the divine and sacred. Since I see creating this language as a creative act, defining that language as a form of art makes sense to me especially as I don't see it as a random production, but one aimed at creating a certain view of heaven and earth, a living 'image' of God and Man and their story, past, present and future." - Calmoriah
"I see Religion as creating a language to speak of the divine and sacred. Since I see creating this language as a creative act, defining that language as a form of art makes sense to me especially as I don't see it as a random production, but one aimed at creating a certain view of heaven and earth, a living 'image' of God and Man and their story, past, present and future." - Calmoriah
#33
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Posted 31 March 2011 - 08:30 PM
The more I look at that crocodile the more suspicious I become.
It looks too sinuous, too supple, too naturalistic and to show it emerging from the water like that- it looks too modern to me.
It's not like ancient crocodile images which tend to be very symmetrical.
??
It looks too sinuous, too supple, too naturalistic and to show it emerging from the water like that- it looks too modern to me.
It's not like ancient crocodile images which tend to be very symmetrical.
??
"If physicalism is to be defended, the phenomenological features must themselves be given a physical account. But when we examine their subjective character it seems that such a result is impossible. The reason is that every subjective phenomenon is essentially connected with a single point of view, and it seems inevitable that an objective, physical theory will abandon that point of view." - Thomas Nagel, What Is It Like To Be a Bat?
"I see Religion as creating a language to speak of the divine and sacred. Since I see creating this language as a creative act, defining that language as a form of art makes sense to me especially as I don't see it as a random production, but one aimed at creating a certain view of heaven and earth, a living 'image' of God and Man and their story, past, present and future." - Calmoriah
"I see Religion as creating a language to speak of the divine and sacred. Since I see creating this language as a creative act, defining that language as a form of art makes sense to me especially as I don't see it as a random production, but one aimed at creating a certain view of heaven and earth, a living 'image' of God and Man and their story, past, present and future." - Calmoriah
#34
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Posted 31 March 2011 - 08:34 PM
mfbukowski, on 31 March 2011 - 08:30 PM, said:
The more I look at that crocodile the more suspicious I become.
It looks too sinuous, too supple, too naturalistic and to show it emerging from the water like that- it looks too modern to me.
It's not like ancient crocodile images which tend to be very symmetrical.
??
It looks too sinuous, too supple, too naturalistic and to show it emerging from the water like that- it looks too modern to me.
It's not like ancient crocodile images which tend to be very symmetrical.
??
I hate to say it, but that crocodile looks like one of those little plastic toys my grandsons like to play with. It really does.
Remember these plates are supposedly credit card size, so these would have to be small things to make the impressions on clay.
#35
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Posted 31 March 2011 - 08:37 PM
IMG_0556.jpg (12.23K)
Number of downloads: 16
This big head looks just like a coin too. You can faintly see the shadow of a ring of the edge of a coin around it.
I've seen magic cut gems that look like the chariot in the upper left.
#36
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Posted 31 March 2011 - 08:40 PM
Bill Hamblin, on 31 March 2011 - 08:37 PM, said:
I've seen magic cut gems that look like the chariot in the upper left.
I KNOW I have seen that chariot image before I just can't place it.
"If physicalism is to be defended, the phenomenological features must themselves be given a physical account. But when we examine their subjective character it seems that such a result is impossible. The reason is that every subjective phenomenon is essentially connected with a single point of view, and it seems inevitable that an objective, physical theory will abandon that point of view." - Thomas Nagel, What Is It Like To Be a Bat?
"I see Religion as creating a language to speak of the divine and sacred. Since I see creating this language as a creative act, defining that language as a form of art makes sense to me especially as I don't see it as a random production, but one aimed at creating a certain view of heaven and earth, a living 'image' of God and Man and their story, past, present and future." - Calmoriah
"I see Religion as creating a language to speak of the divine and sacred. Since I see creating this language as a creative act, defining that language as a form of art makes sense to me especially as I don't see it as a random production, but one aimed at creating a certain view of heaven and earth, a living 'image' of God and Man and their story, past, present and future." - Calmoriah
#37
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Posted 31 March 2011 - 08:41 PM
Here's the type of chariot scene that could be used for an impression.
13.signet_ring_small.jpg (9.48K)
Number of downloads: 7
O3Cf.jpg (95.42K)
Number of downloads: 6
13.signet_ring_small.jpg (9.48K)
Number of downloads: 7
O3Cf.jpg (95.42K)
Number of downloads: 6
#38
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Posted 31 March 2011 - 09:09 PM
Unfortunately I have not yet figured out how to post pictures here, but I found this page VERY interesting- two images similar to those on that one plate- where? In none other than Janson- everyone's Art History 101 text.
"If physicalism is to be defended, the phenomenological features must themselves be given a physical account. But when we examine their subjective character it seems that such a result is impossible. The reason is that every subjective phenomenon is essentially connected with a single point of view, and it seems inevitable that an objective, physical theory will abandon that point of view." - Thomas Nagel, What Is It Like To Be a Bat?
"I see Religion as creating a language to speak of the divine and sacred. Since I see creating this language as a creative act, defining that language as a form of art makes sense to me especially as I don't see it as a random production, but one aimed at creating a certain view of heaven and earth, a living 'image' of God and Man and their story, past, present and future." - Calmoriah
"I see Religion as creating a language to speak of the divine and sacred. Since I see creating this language as a creative act, defining that language as a form of art makes sense to me especially as I don't see it as a random production, but one aimed at creating a certain view of heaven and earth, a living 'image' of God and Man and their story, past, present and future." - Calmoriah
#39
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Posted 01 April 2011 - 06:56 AM
Daniel Peterson, on 31 March 2011 - 03:58 PM, said:
Just received a note, indirectly, from Peter Thonemann at Oxford. He presents a pretty good case that the documents are modern forgeries.
.
.
Thanks for this important update, Dan.
Currently: Up to some astonishingly unethical Mopologetic trickery.
"I think we may accept it as a rule that whenever a person's
religious conversation dwells chiefly, or even frequently,
on the faults of other people's religions, he is in a bad condition."
-C.S. Lewis (Collected Letters Vol. 3 p. 209).
"I think we may accept it as a rule that whenever a person's
religious conversation dwells chiefly, or even frequently,
on the faults of other people's religions, he is in a bad condition."
-C.S. Lewis (Collected Letters Vol. 3 p. 209).
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Posted 01 April 2011 - 07:03 AM
If these are indeed forgeries, are the death threats fake too? Maybe to make the story more compelling?
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"If the Church were not true, our enemies would be bored rather than threatened, and acquiescent rather than anxious. Hell is moved only when things move Heavenward." Elder Neal A. Maxwell
youtubebookofmormontruth
"If the Church were not true, our enemies would be bored rather than threatened, and acquiescent rather than anxious. Hell is moved only when things move Heavenward." Elder Neal A. Maxwell
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