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David Bokovoy

Communal Sin in the Bible

185 posts in this topic

Since I don't hold the same political ideologies as people like Will and Loran, these "Saints' begin a pubic campaign to assassinate my character and belief. Still the fact that Mr. Schryver has recently begun the same campaign against Kevin Barney, a kindly soul who has written some of the most important pieces of LDS scholarship to date speaks volumes. How tragic that these individuals cannot successfully discuss their perspectives without resulting to personal attacks, sexual innuendos, swearing, name-calling, and public accusations of leading the Saints into dark and forbidden paths.

That is very saddening. We really don't need people appointing themselves apostatesmellers pursuivant.

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That is very saddening. We really don't need people appointing themselves apostatesmellers pursuivant.

I don't know. It might lead to witch-burnings and hilarious hijinks. Might be worth it.

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I don't know. It might lead to witch-burnings and hilarious hijinks. Might be worth it.

Knew you would get it.

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The fact that this happens in the name of religious piety makes this situation 1000 times more deplorable than comparable actions performed by critics.

..and that is really the sad crux of it.

It wouldn't matter if the messeger was trailing heaven dust, if he entreats his subjects with such disdain, belittlement and condecsension, the recipient won't give a flying rat's a$$ about his message.

In my opinion, these people who act this way in a public forum and present themselves as "Mormons" are doing serious damage. I can not imagine outsiders looking in and thinking....

You don't have to be an outsider to be turned off!

Your induced desire to disengage is very understandable and actually commendable. Hold the door for me and I'll follow you out.

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Sadly, I don't think it is possible. And to be quite frank, I'm tried of all of the bickering, name-calling, and especially judgmental religious arrogance manifested in this forum. If I share with people my background and the reason why I feel a bit sensitive at being told I don't understand my field, I'm accused of arrogance, and told publicly that people feel embarrassed for me.

Don't let it get to you, David.

When friends like Volgadon share similar views to mine, they are exposed to all sorts of insults by those who disagree, yet cannot counter the argument.

As one who has been so insulted, I consider this a small price to pay for such a worthy friend.

The fact that this happens in the name of religious piety makes this situation 1000 times more deplorable than comparable actions performed by critics.

Since I don't hold the same political ideologies as people like Will and Loran, these "Saints' begin a pubic campaign to assassinate my character and belief. Still the fact that Mr. Schryver has recently begun the same campaign against Kevin Barney, a kindly soul who has written some of the most important pieces of LDS scholarship to date speaks volumes. How tragic that these individuals cannot successfully discuss their perspectives without resulting to personal attacks, sexual innuendos, swearing, name-calling, and public accusations of leading the Saints into dark and forbidden paths.

Three words: By their fruits...

In my opinion, these people who act this way in a public forum and present themselves as "Mormons" are doing serious damage.

I agree. The minute contention begins, the Spirit departs. All words at that point become sounding brass and tinkling cymbals.

I can not imagine outsiders looking in and thinking, "Wow, this person knows the truth about God, man, and the universe." "Perhaps this Mormonism concept has something that could enrich my life." I'm not going to be melodramatic and stomp off claiming I'm done, because, sadly, I have an addiction to online LDS discussion. But there are a lot more productive ways to spend one's time, and to be quite frank, the inability of a select few to engage topics without making them personal is beyond tiring.

We should form a club. "Hi. My name is Mercy and I'm a MDDBaholic." :P

In other words, if you guys really care about me, and you see me posting again on message boards, please do me a favor and someone come and steal my computer.

Feel free to share any insights and discuss topics via PM. Lately, I've found that's a more productive alternative to panning for gold on the open forum.

Honestly, do love you guys. Hope to see some of you at Education Week.

--DB

Much love in return!

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Don't let it get to you, David.

As one who has been so insulted, I consider this a small price to pay for such a worthy friend.

Three words: By their fruits...

I agree. The minute contention begins, the Spirit departs. All words at that point become sounding brass and tinkling cymbals.

We should form a club. "Hi. My name is Mercy and I'm a MDDBaholic." :P

Feel free to share any insights and discuss topics via PM. Lately, I've found that's a more productive alternative to panning for gold on the open forum.

Much love in return!

LOL! ;)

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Except Deborah, that there is no possible way to avoid the politics because that is inherent and intrinsic to David's entire body of belief in this area. The major evidence I would point to is that, indeed, this is always where these threads end up, before being locked, regardless of the pretext upon which they are inititated in the OP. Always. Every thread David has ever started within this area inexorably ends in deep division, polar dissention over fundamental gospel teachings that most LDS would consider settled and not open to negotiation, and especially to radical revision, and rancor.

I'm sorry to have sometimes been part of the rancor, the that is the nature of the beast that David keeps letting out of its cage.

There is nothing that requires people to respond to David's comments in such a way that it leads to such things. One only has to look at Walker, Deborah and others who manage to discuss these things just fine without the politics you claim are inherent and intrinsic.

Maybe if you and a few others who insist on reading politics into David's comments and then challenge it on those points stopped insisting that it has to be political we might end up with a few threads not so.

As evidence that one can take part in these discussion without the political commentary I would point to the criticism I've received where not once has any of the political analysis of my comments been even close to what my actual political position is....because I don't do politics on this board.

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"O God, why hast thou cast us off for ever? why doth thine anger smoke against the sheep of thy pasture? Remember thy congregation, which thou hast purchased of old" (Psalm 74:1-2).

Both the community and the individuals within its sphere could commit sin.

By definition the "sheep of [the Lord's] pasture" and "[His] congregation" are not His 'enemies' and are not guilty of the sins of those around them who "have defiled by casting down the dwelling place of thy name to the ground."

I see this psalm as a plea for the good people to not suffer any longer because of those around them, and not as a confession of communal guilt. "O deliver not the soul of thy turtledove unto the multitude of the wicked". There is a very clear distinction in this psalm between those who follow the Lord and those who are actually guilty of the sin. Sin leads to suffering even for those who are not guilty of those sins. Thus the effects of sin are shared by many or, to use terms you might like ;) , they are "communal" or they are "spreading the wealth" of misery around. They are not spreading the actual guilt around. Sin and righteousness have and always will be individual.

There are not two types of sin, there are only sinners who have found like-minded cohorts and those who have not. The only difference between individual sin and what you call "communal sin", is how lonely the sinner feels.

:crazy: I propose we make a new section of the board for topics like this one. I have a few suggestions for names:

"Socialist Hall"

"Looking Beyond the Marx"

"The 'Social' Justice of God"

"The KGB of the KJV"

"Mao is the Che of Salvation"

and my personal favorite

"The Iron Curtain Rod" :fool:

Relax, I am joking. See I used emoticons :P Sheesh, let's relax. A little levity is great, especially at David's expense. :):crazy::beatdeadhorse: (I just found out there is an emoticon limit on the board. Not sure if it is for redistributive reasons or not though. Just know that I had 10 more.)

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That is very saddening. We really don't need people appointing themselves apostatesmellers pursuivant.

You and your British humor.

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We should form a club. "Hi. My name is Mercy and I'm a MDDBaholic." :P

When kolipoki came to Texas to visit his in-laws, him and his wife had dinner with me and mine. He suggested that both our wives join "Wives of MDDB addicts Anonymous."

Those poor women.

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The idea of communal sin has the flipside of communal salvation, something you find Joseph Smith teaching. The Mishnah states that "all Israel has a share in the world to come." The prooftext is Isaiah 60:21. I'll post more on the exceptions to the rule.

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The idea of communal sin has the flipside of communal salvation, something you find Joseph Smith teaching. The Mishnah states that "all Israel has a share in the world to come." The prooftext is Isaiah 60:21. I'll post more on the exceptions to the rule.

I need to mul this around. I am having a hard time with communal salvation. That is it seems the idea that I am not saved unless every Mormon or (or even people of other faiths with in my community) (Communmity)) is saved. I don;t know if that is what you meant but I don't find any support for that idea. Lets discuss.

How ever one thing we must do to be saved is to serve our community.

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LOL! :P

I am scratching my head at this one? Oh well carry on.

........I plan on eating 3 (not 1 or 2 but 3) oranges today. Yum.

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I need to mul this around. I am having a hard time with communal salvation. That is it seems the idea that I am not saved unless every Mormon or (or even people of other faiths with in my community) (Communmity)) is saved. I don;t know if that is what you meant but I don't find any support for that idea. Lets discuss.

How ever one thing we must do to be saved is to serve our community.

No, that is not quite what I meant. Salvation is not for the individual only, but for the community as well. abiding in the covenant and covenant group brings salvation. We focus a lot on the need for attending church, for the community experience and fellowship. The baptismal covenant as formulated by Alma insists upon communal responsibility.

The righteous though will be saved no matter what.

In the examples of those who do not have a share in the world to come you'll see that the common thread is actively pitting themselves against the covenant group and its interests.

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Hey Friend,

I need to mul this around. I am having a hard time with communal salvation. That is it seems the idea that I am not saved unless every Mormon or (or even people of other faiths with in my community) (Communmity)) is saved. I don;t know if that is what you meant but I don't find any support for that idea. Lets discuss.

How ever one thing we must do to be saved is to serve our community.

This is a great question and one that has been alluded to in these discussions that I feel requires an explanation. While I don't pretend to hold all the answers, the way that I see this issue can be demonstrated via the second Article of Faith:

"We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression."

I believe that the verbal tense in this instance signifies the fact that the "punishment" referred to in this statement addresses final punishment. In other words, in the "final" judgment, men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's (or anyone else's) transgression. But the scriptures clearly teach that in the present context God administers both communal punishment and salvation.

Best,

--DB

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If we cannot be saved (or made perfect) without our dead it seems strange to say we can be saved without our living.

And now, my dearly beloved brethren and sisters, let me assure you that these are principles in relation to the dead and the living that cannot be lightly passed over, as pertaining to our salvation. For their [the dead
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Hey Friend,

This is a great question and one that has been alluded to in these discussions that I feel requires an explanation. While I don't pretend to hold all the answers, the way that I see this issue can be demonstrated via the second Article of Faith:

"We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression."

I believe that the verbal tense in this instance signifies the fact that the "punishment" referred to in this statement addresses final punishment. In other words, in the "final" judgment, men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's (or anyone else's) transgression. But the scriptures clearly teach that in the present context God administers both communal punishment and salvation.

Best,

--DB

Its hard to imagine that when JS authored this Article of Faith he had such a complex idea in mind. Am I wrong?

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Its hard to imagine that when JS authored this Article of Faith he had such a complex idea in mind. Am I wrong?

It's a great question. I know you weren't trying to suggest otherwise, but I believe that the Prophet was a much deeper thinker than we often give him credit for. That having been said, I suspect you're probably correct that Joseph had not entirely fleshed out these theological issues. Still, the verbal tense does imply that Joseph had future punishment in mind, i.e. punishment in the final eschatological sense.

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Its hard to imagine that when JS authored this Article of Faith he had such a complex idea in mind. Am I wrong?

I don't see it as that complex of an idea. We know that many individuals are punished due to others' sins in the sense of suffering consequences. We are never taught that mortality in and of itself is fair and just, only that God is just and that such justice will come to its fullness at the time of God's judgment. That this might include communal punishment if this is necessary for God's purpose is not a stretch either imo, a famine or other disaster can't be sent to individuals only and since the scriptures teach that in some cases these are sent by God then it would seem that communal punishment does take place.

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But the scriptures clearly teach that in the present context God administers both communal punishment and salvation.

I have no intention of thinking JS was not a deep thinker and the way you put it helps me.

I find it an exciting and intriguing thing that communal salvation and punishment. But, I'm reminded of a few things here. First, years ago Ostler's FAIR conference talk...he said something along the lines of (too lazy to get it exact right now) 'I am not saved unless you are saved'. His context seemed to indicate a future salvation or after this life. It makes me feel like its beyond family salvation. Second, if we are not saved without our ancestors and they without us, then it appears, savlation is also a communal thing that extends beyond earth, real-time communities. I hope that makes sense.

Does this work in the same vain in which you are discussing?

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I have no intention of thinking JS was not a deep thinker and the way you put it helps me.

I find it an exciting and intriguing thing that communal salvation and punishment. But, I'm reminded of a few things here. First, years ago Ostler's FAIR conference talk...he said something along the lines of (too lazy to get it exact right now) 'I am not saved unless you are saved'. His context seemed to indicate a future salvation or after this life. It makes me feel like its beyond family salvation. Second, if we are not saved without our ancestors and they without us, then it appears, savlation is also a communal thing that extends beyond earth, real-time communities. I hope that makes sense.

Does this work in the same vain in which you are discussing?

I believe it does, and that these are excellent points. But I freely admit that I do not have the entire issue fleshed out myself. I fully agree, it is an exciting concept, though.

Best,

--DB

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I believe it does, and that these are excellent points. But I freely admit that I do not have the entire issue fleshed out myself. I fully agree, it is an exciting concept, though.

Best,

--DB

Well, the reason I bring that up is that salvation is about love, in my view. If I am unable to learn to base my persuits on love then I am unwilling to be saved (read exalted). Love in every way I can imagine requires others to join. Family seems important in this context, but it also seems like it should extend far beyond family. We should see a way to love our fellow man in a way I fear has yet been tapped into. If community love is not experienced then we are unlike those of the city of Enoch. How to get there? What is community repentence?

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14 Go ye out from among the nations, even from Babylon, from the midst of wickedness, which is spiritual Babylon.

Bottom line: There is no such thing as

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I like the way Abraham Joshua Heschel put it:

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No, that is not quite what I meant. Salvation is not for the individual only, but for the community as well. abiding in the covenant and covenant group brings salvation. We focus a lot on the need for attending church, for the community experience and fellowship. The baptismal covenant as formulated by Alma insists upon communal responsibility.

The righteous though will be saved no matter what.

In the examples of those who do not have a share in the world to come you'll see that the common thread is actively pitting themselves against the covenant group and its interests.

Ok, I agree. I did not think you meant what I had out lined.

I have heard that some poeple believe that they will only obtain salvation onlyl if their community is saved. Which it appears there is no reason to talk about that as that is not your point.

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