79 replies to this topic

[Deborah]

Jaybear, on 24 March 2011 - 06:10 AM, said:

I take it your are suggesting that Smith may have deluded himself into believing that he had the ability to locate buried treasure.

I don't believe he was delusional either. I believe he actually had the ability. I'm not locked into a three dimensional world of what is possible but think there is so much more power that we don't all have access to. The fact that he may have charged money for his gift may have inhibited that gift. He was after all human and poor. I believe people have many gifts which to the man who has no faith seem delusional but I've seen too much of the inexplicable to say that these things aren't possible.

[Jaybear]

Deborah, on 24 March 2011 - 06:56 AM, said:

I don't believe he was delusional either. I believe he actually had the ability. I'm not locked into a three dimensional world of what is possible but think there is so much more power that we don't all have access to. The fact that he may have charged money for his gift may have inhibited that gift. He was after all human and poor. I believe people have many gifts which to the man who has no faith seem delusional but I've seen too much of the inexplicable to say that these things aren't possible.

Why didn't he just take a shovel and dig up the treasures for himself?  He may have been poor, but surely his family could afford a shovel.

[Deborah]

Jaybear, on 24 March 2011 - 07:09 AM, said:

Why didn't he just take a shovel and dig up the treasures for himself?  He may have been poor, but surely his family could afford a shovel.

If it wasn't his land it wasn't his to dig.

[Rivers]

He did produce a lot of good fruit, but the fruit of polygamy he produced seems kind of bitter.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

calmoriah, on 23 March 2011 - 08:52 PM, said:

I've always thought that attitude was kind of an insult to God since it was in his image that man was made and we are his children.

Humans in their fallen state can be worse than the animals, but the scriptures are clear who is our Father and that we are in his image.  I think the least we can do is value our human brothers and sisters as God does instead of trashing them (and ourselves) as if God's family were somehow inherently worthless or despicable.

Our spirits were created in his image, our fallen natural bodies/instincts were NOT. We only become like God when we let our spirits rule over our bodies.

This is what God has to say about the natural state of man...

Quote

Mosiah 3
19 For the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a child, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father.

Quote

Helaman 12
7O how great is the nothingness of the children of men; yea, even they are less than the dust of the earth.

8For behold, the dust of the earth moveth hither and thither, to the dividing asunder, at the command of our great and everlasting God.

Edited by BookofMormonLuvr, 24 March 2011 - 08:37 AM.

[ELF1024]

Rivers, on 24 March 2011 - 07:57 AM, said:

He did produce a lot of good fruit, but the fruit of polygamy he produced seems kind of bitter.

I'm not sure that it's the fruit itself that is bitter, or if it is the current popular representation of that fruit. I don't pretend to understand all of what happened in regards to polygamy. I don't think that there is a fully truthful account out there. The church more than likley does it's job to whitewash it, and the antis seem to do their best to cake it in crap. The truth, well, I am not sure that a truthful account exists.

There are things about the practice of polygamy that truely bother me. However, they don't override the truth of the Book of Mormon. I'll just take it up with Joseph Smith when I see him in the next life.

Edited by ELF1024, 24 March 2011 - 08:41 AM.

[LeSellers]

Rivers, on 24 March 2011 - 07:57 AM, said:

He did produce a lot of good fruit, but the fruit of polygamy he produced seems kind of bitter.

Some people cannot taste (or smell) certain flavors. Others find what most people taste as sweet to be bitter (stevia, for instance).

The fruits of plural marriage are sweet to me, being the descendant of men and women who accepted "the Principle".

Lehi

[Deborah]

LeSellers, on 24 March 2011 - 08:42 AM, said:

The fruits of plural marriage are sweet to me, being the descendant of men and women who accepted "the Principle".

This is the "fruit" most people overlook. No one is saying plural marriage was easy but out of it came some of the most faithful members and leaders.

I think the most positive book I read was when I was in college and was written by one of BY's daughters. I believe it was called "Brigham Young at Home" but it's been many years so I'm not sure.

[Doug the Hutt]

Deborah, on 24 March 2011 - 07:41 AM, said:

If it wasn't his land it wasn't his to dig.

You make far too wide of an allowance with The Prophet's human-ness.  Other than Joseph either intentionally deceiving his clients or being self-deceptive in order to avoid directly deceiving them, he also--

* married other women who were already married -- my own ancestors are among them. Makes for interesting apologetics.

* created the "Kirtland Anti-Banking Society" knowing full well that the State had turned down their request for a charter but went ahead and did it anyway with only one change -- Kirtland Bank was restamped to read Kirtland Anti-Banking Society.  He then pulled a fast one on people who wished to see his capital by showing them the massive stockpile of money which was nothing but a thin layer of silver coins covering as much junk tin and iron as they could muster.  And then he bolted out of town in the middle of the night never to return after ruining the financial lives of hundreds of his followers when the illegal bank crumbled and his life was in danger.

Somehow I don't think was too concerned about land ownership and legalities when there was something he needed or wanted, and as long as he could come up with some sort of cover story he would pursue those things.  He was not the first and will not be the last person to employ such a technique.


"God works in mysterious ways" and according to the Brethren "He qualifies whom He chooses". Perceived moral character, proclivities, activities, etc. have zero bearing at all on whether God has really chosen a person to operate in His name -- that's really what it comes down to.  Consider that in light of the Lafferty brothers.  Dan, who currently resides at the Point of the Mountain Penitentiary with cellmate Mark Hoffman, really really really believes God spoke to him and told he and Ron to murder Brenda and Erica.  So how do you balance your belief system with people like that? (I personally believe they're deranged psychopaths).  We believe that Nephi was told by God Himself to whack off a defenseless, inebriated Laban's head.  Samuel went all Iron-Age on a captive, weaponless Agag and chopped him into smaller-than-human-sized-pieces.  Moses murdered that Egyptian guard who was disciplining the Israelite slave.  Jonah frankly was kind of an ___. God Himself drowned everyone in the world except eight souls and an ark-full of animals.  God revealed to Moses the proper care & feeding of slaves.  God oftentimes had the Israelites invade and commit genocide on neighboring societies, usually because they worshipped Baal or other 'fake' gods (11th Article of Faith be d***ed!).  The perception of our God and our prophets is based exclusively on the belief that they're called, end of story, and at the same time that perception allows for them to engage in violent, abusive, deceptive, destructive activities ("fruits", if you will).  

Deborah, you're a remarkable example of a True Believer who's faith and opinion of God, The Church and The Prophets cannot possibly change because you begin your thought process with them being 'True' then allow them to do whatever they do without question.  How do you normally protect yourself from deception when you're always locked into a church_is_true=yes function?  If I created a Deb-bot (patent pending, patent pending, patent pending!) the beginning variable declaration would be exactly that -- var int church_is_true=1, var int joseph_smtih_was_a_true_prophet=1, and subsequent test functions would be written so that instead of taking in new data to determine a new value for those beginning variables the new data would either yield a rejection of the new data or open up a wider list of exceptions for the Church/Prophet/God/other-churchie-stuff from which to operate and therefore still be 'true'.  It's beautifully backwards.  I definitely believe you are sincere.  Looks like you & I operate on the data in opposite ways -- my epistemology allows for my opinion of God, The Prophets and The Church to change.  Yours doesn't.  How did you get to be that way?

Edited by Doug the Hutt, 24 March 2011 - 09:41 AM.

[Deborah]

dupe

Edited by Deborah, 24 March 2011 - 11:03 AM.

[Deborah]

Doug the Hutt, on 24 March 2011 - 09:39 AM, said:

Looks like you & I operate on the data in opposite ways -- my epistemology allows for my opinion of God, The Prophets and The Church to change.  Yours doesn't.  How did you get to be that way?

Nonsense, I in fact recognize that the church changes to meet the needs of the times. I also recognize that a prophet can be called of God and still make human mistakes. God is unchanging and not sure how anyone can believe in a God who changes. The difference is I give the benefit of the doubt when all the facts aren't known, and particularly when we don't know what was actually in someone's mind and heart. BTW, I operate that way in other areas as well as I've seen people condemned wrongfully on faulty or incomplete information. You and your ilk are ready to jump at any chance to condemn, even on a smidgen of information. You ask how I got to be this way. Experience, lots of spiritual experiences along with study that have confirmed to me the truth.  

You also have illustrated very well how you form an opinion without knowing the whole story. Take the Kirtland Bank. You obviously are unaware that Joseph was not responsible for what happened and tried to warn others when those in charge began taking the bank down the wrong road. Your are obviously unaware that many banks at the time foundered. And your are obviously aware that Joseph used his own funds to pay back as much as possible those who lost money. You really need to get the whole story instead of depending on the anti-Mo sites and their soundbites.

If ignorance is bliss it is also illustrative of the laziness of the critics who depend on incomplete information and whose prejudiced views color what little information they may have.

[Doug the Hutt]

Deborah, on 24 March 2011 - 11:02 AM, said:

Nonsense, I in fact recognize that the church changes to meet the needs of the times. I also recognize that a prophet can be called of God and still make human mistakes. God is unchanging and not sure how anyone can believe in a God who changes. The difference is I give the benefit of the doubt when all the facts aren't known, and particularly when we don't know what was actually in someone's mind and heart. BTW, I operate that way in other areas as well as I've seen people condemned wrongfully on faulty or incomplete information. You and your ilk are ready to jump at any chance to condemn, even on a smidgen of information. You ask how I got to be this way. Experience, lots of spiritual experiences along with study that have confirmed to me the truth.  

You also have illustrated very well how you form an opinion without knowing the whole story. Take the Kirtland Bank. You obviously are unaware that Joseph was not responsible for what happened and tried to warn others when those in charge began taking the bank down the wrong road. Your are obviously unaware that many banks at the time foundered. And your are obviously aware that Joseph used his own funds to pay back as much as possible those who lost money. You really need to get the whole story instead of depending on the anti-Mo sites and their soundbites.

If ignorance is bliss it is also illustrative of the laziness of the critics who depend on incomplete information and whose prejudiced views color what little information they may have.

No offense but for you to call something 'nonsense' almost confirms that it's quite cogent and well-formed.  "Ilk" might as well mean "normal-thinking-rational-people-looking-out-for-those-who-lie-in-wait-to-deceive" -- I ONLY have ever wanted the TRUTH.  You obviously only ever wanted to defend what you think is the truth and you'll stretch any requirements to maintain the illusion, which is only a little funny but mostly nauseating.  God doesn't change, but his Church changes all the time depending on the social requirements at that moment.  What's right in one situation isn't right in another.  You must give the benefit of the doubt to The Leaders and never look for nor find fault with them even if they manage to force you and thousands of others into bankruptcy, or even if your branch of Mormonism actually is a bastardized apostate branch --  not allowed to look too carefully.  And you wrap it all up in a totally subjective spir'tchul bow. Yeah, that's some real solid stuff you can sink your teeth into.

If Joseph, and Sidney, weren't responsible for his quasi-bank's failure, then why did they:
* have to run away in the dead of night from a pack of armed angry people never to return to Ohio?   Persecution, right?
* get fined $1,000 each for operating an illegal bank?  Persecution?
* pay thousands of dollars in the subsequent lawsuit settlements and continue to pay on them until Joseph's death?  Must be Persecution.

He didn't know squat about running a bank, er, a non-bank acting like a bank.  He started the foolish thing.  He did it knowing that the initial charter was shot down and also knowing that the Bill in which it was included was also killed.  Sure, he started seeing the writing on the wall and tried to divorce himself from it a few months before it went belly-up, but that wall was there because he put it there and didn't know the first thing about liquidity, capitalization, solvency, management, risk thresholds, etc. There were reasons the non-bank-acting-as-if-it-were-a-bank-with-its-foresight-set-on-becoming-a-State-chartered-bank died -- they were incompetent, and many people suffered because of it.  Did you ever stop to think about the victims or do you dismiss their experience as some sort of test, and all those who didn't follow him afterward were just spiritually inferior apostates who failed the test?

The Prophet cannot possibly have ever done anything wrong -- it's all a giant conspiracy with Stan always whispering mean nasty things into people's ears and Joseph always being a _victim_ and never ever ever doing anything illegal or immoral or brainless.  Your so-labeled 'whole story' involves an overly-generous dose of apologetics, excuses and biased statements -- your history of posts here and on MAD is a testament to that.  I think objective, reasonable people look at the Kirtland Bank fiasco as what it was -- an illegal bank started by a religious leader with his disciples the unwitting victims of affinity fraud, who was jailed, fined and ran for his life because of his bad decisions.

So on this Kirtland Anti-Banking issue -- let's not forget, there was never in all my years of attendance a venue inside the Church to discuss  this, never in Priesthood, never in Sunday School, never in Fast & Testimony meeting, never in Seminary, never in Institute, never on my mission, never in leadership meetings or anywhere.  There might have been a carefully crafted half-paragraph mention in one of those flimsy little seminary manuals but nothing else of any meaningful  substance.  I never got the 'whole story' from the people who SHOULD have taught it to me in the first place so I didn't HAVE to find it out from outside sources.


hugs & kisses,
_The Doctor_

  Doug the Hutt has left the building.

Edited by Minos, 24 March 2011 - 04:29 PM.

[calmoriah]

Rivers, on 24 March 2011 - 07:57 AM, said:

He did produce a lot of good fruit, but the fruit of polygamy he produced seems kind of bitter.

There are a number of descendants (myself included) who are the literal fruit of plural marriage.  Last I checked I'm not even kind of bitter.

[cinepro]

LeSellers, on 24 March 2011 - 08:42 AM, said:

The fruits of plural marriage are sweet to me, being the descendant of men and women who accepted "the Principle".

Lehi

This is one of the oddest arguments to make.

The descendants of a relationship are not an indication of the quality of that original union.  I have a good friend who is a great person, but he was conceived out of wedlock, and has never known his biological father.  

While this person has excellent character (and is a stalwart member of the Church), I don't know if even he would say he is evidence of the goodness of fornication.

There may be good arguments for polygamy, but I'm not so sure that the quality of the subsequent generations (especially those reared in monogamy) is one of them.

Edited by cinepro, 24 March 2011 - 04:01 PM.

[Pahoran]

Doug the Hutt, on 24 March 2011 - 09:39 AM, said:

* created the "Kirtland Anti-Banking Society" knowing full well that the State had turned down their request for a charter but went ahead and did it anyway with only one change -- Kirtland Bank was restamped to read Kirtland Anti-Banking Society.  He then pulled a fast one on people who wished to see his capital by showing them the massive stockpile of money which was nothing but a thin layer of silver coins covering as much junk tin and iron as they could muster.

Call for references in support of this notorious canard.

Regards,
Pahoran

[LDSGuy]

I will add a few things that I can think of that Joseph did.

He brought forth the Book of Mormon, Books of Moses and Abraham, and nearly all of Doctrine and Covenants.
He established a community in Kirtland, Ohio and built a Temple.
He established a church which originally had six members, but now has over 13 million.
He sent missionaries throughout the United States, Europe, and other parts of the world.
He restored the ordinances of the Holy Temple.
He was mayor of Nauvoo and head of the Nauvoo Legion.
He helped establish a bank.
He had the Book of Mormon published on two continents.
He ran for President.  (He lost, but most people do when you think about it.)

The list could go on and on, but those are just a few off the top of my head.  He accomplished more in his 38 years than most people could in 3 or 4 lifetimes.

[Minos]

If anyone wants to argue about banks start a new thread.


REMINDER:   the days of using this board to raz Mormons by throwing out accusation after accusation to derail threads are over.

[LeSellers]

LDSGuy, on 24 March 2011 - 04:19 PM, said:

[Joseph] was mayor of Nauvoo and head of the Nauvoo Legion.

It's important to note here that he was elected to both of these positions and that he did not seek either one of them. (In fact, he could have been deferred from serving in the militia, the Nauvoo Legion, due to his leg injury. Further, he strongly suggested that another man, Bennett, be chosen as Mayor.)

Its a testament to him that his people chose him for these offices and that he filled them so well.

Lehi

Edited by LeSellers, 24 March 2011 - 04:48 PM.

[Kenngo1969]

oats, on 21 March 2011 - 10:59 PM, said:

Monogamy is all about roses and kitty cats from what I hear.

Hey, the world thinks plural marriage is a damnable heresy ...  Now, serial monogamy, on the other hand, it thinks that is pretty cool.

Edited by Kenngo1969, 24 March 2011 - 10:02 PM.

[Kenngo1969]

Doug the Hutt, on 24 March 2011 - 03:45 PM, said:

No offense but for you to call something 'nonsense' almost confirms that it's quite cogent and well-formed.  "Ilk" might as well mean "normal-thinking-rational-people-looking-out-for-those-who-lie-in-wait-to-deceive" -- I ONLY have ever wanted the TRUTH.  You obviously only ever wanted to defend what you think is the truth and you'll stretch any requirements to maintain the illusion, which is only a little funny but mostly nauseating.  God doesn't change, but his Church changes all the time depending on the social requirements at that moment.  What's right in one situation isn't right in another.  You must give the benefit of the doubt to The Leaders and never look for nor find fault with them even if they manage to force you and thousands of others into bankruptcy, or even if your branch of Mormonism actually is a bastardized apostate branch --  not allowed to look too carefully.  And you wrap it all up in a totally subjective spir'tchul bow. Yeah, that's some real solid stuff you can sink your teeth into.

If Joseph, and Sidney, weren't responsible for his quasi-bank's failure, then why did they:
* have to run away in the dead of night from a pack of armed angry people never to return to Ohio?   Persecution, right?
* get fined $1,000 each for operating an illegal bank?  Persecution?
* pay thousands of dollars in the subsequent lawsuit settlements and continue to pay on them until Joseph's death?  Must be Persecution.

He didn't know squat about running a bank, er, a non-bank acting like a bank.  He started the foolish thing.  He did it knowing that the initial charter was shot down and also knowing that the Bill in which it was included was also killed.  Sure, he started seeing the writing on the wall and tried to divorce himself from it a few months before it went belly-up, but that wall was there because he put it there and didn't know the first thing about liquidity, capitalization, solvency, management, risk thresholds, etc. There were reasons the non-bank-acting-as-if-it-were-a-bank-with-its-foresight-set-on-becoming-a-State-chartered-bank died -- they were incompetent, and many people suffered because of it.  Did you ever stop to think about the victims or do you dismiss their experience as some sort of test, and all those who didn't follow him afterward were just spiritually inferior apostates who failed the test?

Somebody put arsenic in your oatmeal this morning, Dougie?

Quote

The Prophet cannot possibly have ever done anything wrong -- it's all a giant conspiracy with Stan always whispering mean nasty things into people's ears ...

Oh, I know!  I just hate it when Stan whispers mean, nasty things into my ears!   Wait ... who's Stan?