volgadon Posted March 25, 2011 Share Posted March 25, 2011 You've sealed your fate. Good luck in hell. Getting crowded in there. Used to be a nice place, reserved for Filthy Socialists and other sundry scum of the earth. Now you make it so just anyone can get in. Link to comment
WalkerW Posted March 25, 2011 Share Posted March 25, 2011 Whenever I see American political ideologies conflated with the Gospel (e.g. we are going through a BoM pride cycle right now with Obama in office...), I always think of this article. Link to comment
WalkerW Posted March 25, 2011 Share Posted March 25, 2011 Getting crowded in there. Used to be a nice place, reserved for Filthy Socialists and other sundry scum of the earth. Now you make it so just anyone can get in.I might be joining you. From what I've heard, there are number of filthy libertarians there as well... Link to comment
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted March 25, 2011 Share Posted March 25, 2011 It seems to me there are many different ways to live the Lord's command to "Love your neighbor as yourself." Probably an infinite number. Creating wealth and thereby giving someone a job is one. Philanthropic giving to the poor is another. These are not contradictory or incompatible. They are complimentary. When we see any human political system or theory as intrinsic (or inimical) to the Gospel, we necessarily distort the Gospel in the process. The Gospel must transcend human political theories, which will all pass away one day when God's kingdom comes. The Lord's command to "Love your neighbor as yourself" can be lived in a capitalist society, a communist society, or a concentration camp. It is not a political or economic system that permits for forbids you from living the Great Commandment. It is our own greed and clinging to the natural man.That sums up my feelings. Link to comment
David Bokovoy Posted March 25, 2011 Author Share Posted March 25, 2011 You've sealed your fate. Good luck in hell. Yeah, but I'm hopeful that I get out quickly since I directly countered that vote with Brown! Link to comment
WalkerW Posted March 25, 2011 Share Posted March 25, 2011 Yeah, but I'm hopeful that I get out quickly since I directly countered that vote with Brown!President or Senator. Which is the greater communal sin? Link to comment
David Bokovoy Posted March 25, 2011 Author Share Posted March 25, 2011 President or Senator. Which is the greater communal sin? That's why I said I hope I get out quickly! Link to comment
volgadon Posted March 25, 2011 Share Posted March 25, 2011 Buffettings for a season. No reason for VIP treatment, such as a private compartment in Hell! Link to comment
BCSpace Posted March 25, 2011 Share Posted March 25, 2011 It seems to me there are many different ways to live the Lord's command to "Love your neighbor as yourself." Probably an infinite number. Creating wealth and thereby giving someone a job is one. Philanthropic giving to the poor is another. These are not contradictory or incompatible. They are complimentary.Sure. But none of those takes away agency which is why they are not contradictory.When we see any human political system or theory as intrinsic (or inimical) to the Gospel, we necessarily distort the Gospel in the process. The Gospel must transcend human political theories, which will all pass away one day when God's kingdom comes. I completely disagree. The Lord made man and gave him revelations and commandments including the law of Consecration. If free market capitalism happens to mirror what God has revealed or how He operates, which it does, then it is God's system or a subset thereof. We know that God allows us to exercise our agency and to suffer the consequences or reap the rewards. Free market capitalism does exactly that. If there is greed, then it is brought by the indiviudal, and is not intrinsict to the system itself.The Lord's command to "Love your neighbor as yourself" can be lived in a capitalist society, a communist society, or a concentration camp.Not in any economic sense or even in a spiritual sense. It's already been shown that man typically forgets God and cannot serve Him when he has to scratch that hard to survive. That is why the Church is so concerned with education of the members etc. in third world countries. The Lord does not approve of communism or concentration camps. Link to comment
Deborah Posted March 25, 2011 Share Posted March 25, 2011 It's already been shown that man typically forgets God and cannot serve Him when he has to scratch that hard to survive. I don't think that has been shown. In fact accounts of concentration camps in Nazi Germany tell of those who comforted others, who maintained their faith and who shared even what little they had. I find Americans for the most part very generous. Even those who have to scratch a living to survive. What people resent is when someone tells them they have to do something. But give them an opportunity on their own and they will find a way to do so, no matter what the circumstances. Link to comment
Nomad Posted March 25, 2011 Share Posted March 25, 2011 I just noticed "gurn's" signature quote:Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience. C. S. Lewis What an excellent observation!I like it so much I've made it my signature now, too. Link to comment
David Bokovoy Posted March 25, 2011 Author Share Posted March 25, 2011 Finally a frank admission of the ideology underlying all of the threads he has started on this topic over the course of the past year or so.And this is somehow news?I have no doubt that he believes this.I do. Link to comment
Nomad Posted March 25, 2011 Share Posted March 25, 2011 ... I have been somewhat discomfited and embarrassed for you in some of your personal claims.You're not alone. What is most troubling to me is that everyone who has expressed reservations over David's viewpoints has been dismissed as: ignorant and uninformed; some kind of extreme right wing wacko; and at odds with the teachings of the gospel and the leadership of the church. From what I have seen, he has engaged in a subtle demonization (not to mention misrepresentation) of everyone who has disagreed with his perspectives, or even expressed hesitation to see things the way he does. Link to comment
semlogo Posted March 25, 2011 Share Posted March 25, 2011 It's already been shown that man typically forgets God and cannot serve Him when he has to scratch that hard to survive. Have you served a mission? I found on mine that the opposite is true. It's the rich and comfortable who have no time for God. Link to comment
semlogo Posted March 25, 2011 Share Posted March 25, 2011 This quote caused me hours of lost sleep. Were this merely some academic exercise in the study of ancient texts, I Link to comment
David Bokovoy Posted March 25, 2011 Author Share Posted March 25, 2011 You're not alone. What is most troubling to me is that everyone who has expressed reservations over David's viewpoints has been dismissed as: ignorant and uninformed; some kind of extreme right wing wacko; and at odds with the teachings of the gospel and the leadership of the church. From what I have seen, he has engaged in a subtle demonization (not to mention misrepresentation) of everyone who has disagreed with his perspectives, or even expressed hesitation to see things the way he does.Again, all you do is make these drive by accusations, one after another, without providing any evidence whatsoever for your claims. Anytime I have disagreed with an uninformed position I have illustrated via detailed examples and commentary the reasons why, can you make the same claim in your effort to overtly demonize me?It's a brave move for a soul who hides behind the mask of anonymity. Link to comment
Deborah Posted March 25, 2011 Share Posted March 25, 2011 What is most troubling to me is that everyone who has expressed reservations over David's viewpoints has been dismissed as: ignorant and uninformed; some kind of extreme right wing wacko; and at odds with the teachings of the gospel and the leadership of the church. Not so. there are those of us who have disagreed with his interpretations and stated such. What is not called for is name calling and personal disparaging comments. Link to comment
David Bokovoy Posted March 25, 2011 Author Share Posted March 25, 2011 I find it enlightened to notice that while David always finds plenty of scripture and Bible scholarship to back up his view, his detractors seem to rely completely on modern political theories.I must say that I'm pleased to know that I'm not the only one who has picked up on this trend. Link to comment
David Bokovoy Posted March 25, 2011 Author Share Posted March 25, 2011 Not so. there are those of us who have disagreed with his interpretations and stated such. What is not called for is name calling and personal disparaging comments.Thank you, Deborah, my long time online friend, who has disagreed with 99.9 % of the way I connect scripture with politics (though to be honest I seldom do in this forum). Your behavior in these contexts has been an example to us all. I'm always grateful and interested to read your views. Link to comment
Nomad Posted March 25, 2011 Share Posted March 25, 2011 I find it enlightened to notice that while David always finds plenty of scripture and Bible scholarship to back up his view, his detractors seem to rely completely on modern political theories."gurn" said nothing about modern political theories.I have never said anything about modern political theories.Robert Smith said nothing about politics.The insinuation that all opposition to Bokovoy's interpretations is political in nature is unfounded. Link to comment
Nomad Posted March 25, 2011 Share Posted March 25, 2011 What is not called for is name calling and personal disparaging comments.I admit that I have not read even 10% of the posts on this thread. Perhaps some on this thread are guilty of this.But I have done neither. Link to comment
stemelbow Posted March 25, 2011 Share Posted March 25, 2011 I wonder if egos grow larger and personalities become more obtuse when political arguments arise or if religious arguments arise. This thread hasn't quite resolved that yet, but its getting close. Lets see how this plays out. Link to comment
Nomad Posted March 25, 2011 Share Posted March 25, 2011 I must say that I'm pleased to know that I'm not the only one who has picked up on this trend.I must say that I find it interesting that a good number of those who come to your defense on these threads of yours are posters that, if memory serves, are non-believers in Mormonism. You appear to be very popular among that crowd, both here and at MDB. Not sure what that means, but I've noticed it. Link to comment
DH Posted March 25, 2011 Share Posted March 25, 2011 [Oops! I meant to post in the 'communal sin' thread!] Link to comment
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