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LDS Guy 1986

Is the doctrine of the Rapture Biblical?

Rapture  

36 members have voted

  1. 1. Is the teaching of the rapture Biblical in your opinion?

    • Yes
      9
    • No
      27
    • Unsure
      0
    • Don't know
      0


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So in another thread a poster brought up the protestant doctrine of the Rapture:

As found here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapture

We see that this doctrine created around 1738, it states that worthy Christians will be swept away to heaven in a pre-tribulation secret return of Christ before his Second Coming (or as critics like me point out his 3rd Coming), and the unworthy Christians and everyone else are Left Behind.

There has been movies made about this doctrine, books written, yet despite all of this fictional support there isn't any mention of this pre tribulation rescue of the entire Book of Revelations! This seems odd to me that the man who was the second coming unfold in a vision never once mentions this pre tribulation rapture, but instead has the Saint gathering on Earth while being persecuted by the Anti-Christ (I believe rapture supports say this are the unworthy Christians who become worthy after the rapture).

Of all the scriptures, here are the three verses they can find that mention people getting taken by Christ:

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

Note that none of these say where you are taken only that you are taken, not in Revelations it says "And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had receivedhis mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection." (Revelations 20:1-5)

This seems to tell us that the raising of the dead and of the righteous living will happen after Satan is bound, which happens AFTER the tribulation not before the tribulation, while Christ is descending from Heaven to establish his millennial reign.

This is my understanding of the word of God, and as a Mormon I reject all doctrine made by men who are not called as prophets of God, by the proper authority from Jesus Christ, but I admit that I am not unbiased here and while I do not agree with the rapture I did my best to present it as I know of it.

I did believe in the rapture for many years I remember reading the Left Behind books and believing this was a fictional drama about real events which would occur, it was only through deep study of the Book of Revelations and in part to due to my conversion to Mormonism and the discovery that the rapture is a man made doctrine not a biblical doctrine that I have abandoned this doctrine personally.

So I present a few questions:

1) Why isn't the rapture mentioned in Revelations?

2) How do you reconcile ( LDS) the rapture given it's uninspired nature in regards to church beliefs and doctrine regarding revelation and new doctrine?

3) How do you reconcile (non LDS) the rapture with the fact that there is no mention of it in the Book of Revelations?

4) What is your thinking and your reasoning behind your thinking?

Thanks for the input!

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A controversy exists in creedal christian groups about whether it is before or after the tribulation.

Just because LDS believe it is after the tribulation doesn't mean that it can't be called the rapture.

So in another thread a poster brought up the protestant doctrine of the Rapture:

As found here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapture

We see that this doctrine created around 1738, it states that worthy Christians will be swept away to heaven in a pre-tribulation secret return of Christ before his Second Coming (or as critics like me point out his 3rd Coming), and the unworthy Christians and everyone else are Left Behind.

There has been movies made about this doctrine, books written, yet despite all of this fictional support there isn't any mention of this pre tribulation rescue of the entire Book of Revelations! This seems odd to me that the man who was the second coming unfold in a vision never once mentions this pre tribulation rapture, but instead has the Saint gathering on Earth while being persecuted by the Anti-Christ (I believe rapture supports say this are the unworthy Christians who become worthy after the rapture).

Of all the scriptures, here are the three verses they can find that mention people getting taken by Christ:

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

Note that none of these say where you are taken only that you are taken, not in Revelations it says "And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had receivedhis mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection." (Revelations 20:1-5)

This seems to tell us that the raising of the dead and of the righteous living will happen after Satan is bound, which happens AFTER the tribulation not before the tribulation, while Christ is descending from Heaven to establish his millennial reign.

This is my understanding of the word of God, and as a Mormon I reject all doctrine made by men who are not called as prophets of God, by the proper authority from Jesus Christ, but I admit that I am not unbiased here and while I do not agree with the rapture I did my best to present it as I know of it.

I did believe in the rapture for many years I remember reading the Left Behind books and believing this was a fictional drama about real events which would occur, it was only through deep study of the Book of Revelations and in part to due to my conversion to Mormonism and the discovery that the rapture is a man made doctrine not a biblical doctrine that I have abandoned this doctrine personally.

So I present a few questions:

1) Why isn't the rapture mentioned in Revelations?

2) How do you reconcile ( LDS) the rapture given it's uninspired nature in regards to church beliefs and doctrine regarding revelation and new doctrine?

3) How do you reconcile (non LDS) the rapture with the fact that there is no mention of it in the Book of Revelations?

4) What is your thinking and your reasoning behind your thinking?

Thanks for the input!

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The pre-Tribulation rapture is a satanic doctrine diametrically opposed to the hope/principles of Zion and Zionic living.

Also, in the Inspired Version (JST) of Luke 17 (the one most often quoted to teach PTR) the Savior Himself clarifies what He meant...

30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed.31 In that day, the disciple who shall be on the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away; and he who is in the field, let him likewise not return back.32 Remember Lot's wife.33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life, shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life, shall preserve it.34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. Two shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.35 Two shall be in the field; the one shall be taken and the other left.36 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord, shall they be taken?37 And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is gathered; or, in other words, whithersoever the saints are gathered, thither will the eagles be gathered together; or, thither will the remainder be gathered together.

This verse is speaking of the righteous, who weren't able to of their own efforts, being miraculously gathered to Zion, the New Jerusalem.

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A controversy exists in creedal christian groups about whether it is before or after the tribulation.

Just because LDS believe it is after the tribulation doesn't mean that it can't be called the rapture.

In the sense that some falsely believe that they will be saved from the tribulation, to me it does.

Imagine how many will stop believing in Christ when he doesn't come to save them from the tribulation.

How many will doubt that Christ loves them when there false promises from man are not fulfilled by Christ?

The rapture is one of the deceivers tools to steal the testimonies, IMO.

Also the scriptures doesn't call it a rapture it calls it the First Resurrection, so I will stick with the Bible and leave the non scriptural "rapture" whom ever wish to follow the doctrine of men over the scriptures.

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The pre-Tribulation rapture is a satanic doctrine diametrically opposed to the hope/principles of Zion and Zionic living.

Also, in the Inspired Version (JST) of Luke 17 (the one most often quoted to teach PTR) the Savior Himself clarifies what He meant...

This verse is speaking of the righteous, who weren't able to of their own efforts, being miraculously gathered to Zion, the New Jerusalem.

It is once in a blue moon that we agree on something exactly but today there must be a blue moon in the sky!

I couldn't of said it better myself BookofMormonLuvr!

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It is once in a blue moon that we agree on something exactly but today there must be a blue moon in the sky!

I couldn't of said it better myself BookofMormonLuvr!

yahoo.gifair_kiss.gifclapping.giffriends.gif

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Call it what you want. Even Talmage called the Godhead the "Trinity"

Anyway, I have no significant disagreements with you on this point.

In the sense that some falsely believe that they will be saved from the tribulation, to me it does.

Imagine how many will stop believing in Christ when he doesn't come to save them from the tribulation.

How many will doubt that Christ loves them when there false promises from man are not fulfilled by Christ?

The rapture is one of the deceivers tools to steal the testimonies, IMO.

Also the scriptures doesn't call it a rapture it calls it the First Resurrection, so I will stick with the Bible and leave the non scriptural "rapture" whom ever wish to follow the doctrine of men over the scriptures.

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Typing on my phone, but I wanted to post what Jesus said, "watch and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen"

Seems that Jesus is interested in having his own escape the tribulation.

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Typing on my phone, but I wanted to post what Jesus said, "watch and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen"

Seems that Jesus is interested in having his own escape the tribulation.

They "escape" by becoming pure in heart and building and gathering in to the New Jerusalem.

When your rapture doesn't happen, Hughes, don't worry. Look to Missouri, where the people of God will be gathered.

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http://en.fairmormon.org/Rapture_and_LDS_theology

Source and scriptural support for Protestant belief

Protestant belief in the rapture is based on Matt. 24:31,39-42; 1 Cor. 15:51-54; and 1 Thess. 4:13-18; 1 Thess. 5:9-10. Although other scriptures might also be applied to this event, their relationship is often questioned even among Protestants. There is also disagreement regarding the rapture's timing in relation to the tribulation period spoken of in Matt. 24:21,29; Mark 13:24; Luke 21:9-26, and Rev. 7:14. According to orthodox Protestant eschatology, the tribulation period will last seven years (two periods of 3 1/2 years; see Dan. 7:25; Dan. 12:7,11; Matt. 24:21-22; Rev. 11:2-3; Rev. 12:6,14; Rev. 13:5). Dan. 9:27 is usually cited in support of this conclusion but Rev. 2:10 provides another figure (10 days or years).

Joseph Smith and modern revelation

Joseph Smith's inspired revision of Matthew 24 informs us that the great tribulation will be "on the Jews and the inhabitants of Jerusalem" (JS-M 1:18) and "after the tribulation of those days... they shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven... and he shall send his angels before him with the great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together the remainder of his elect" (JS-M 1:36-37). DC 29:8 tells us that the "tribulation and desolation shall be upon the wicked," but Joseph Smith added that, "it is a false idea that the Saints will escape all judgment whilst the wicked suffer; for all flesh is subject to suffer, and the righteous shall hardly escape [DC 63:34], still many of the Saints will escape..."[2]

Doctrine and Covenants section 63 provides us with additional insight regarding these events and also explains the LDS belief concerning the translation of believers at the coming of Christ. It states that,

the saints also shall hardly escape; nevertheless, I, the Lord, am with them, and will come down in heaven from the presence of the Father and consume the wicked with unquenchable fire... he that liveth when the Lord shall come, and hath kept the faith, blessed is he; nevertheless, it is appointed to him to die at the age of a man [100 years - Is. 66:20]. Wherefore, children shall grow up until they become old; old men shall die; but they shall not sleep in the dust, but they shall be changed in the twinkling of an eye" (DC 63:34,50-51). It also states that "in the day of the coming of the Son of Man... cometh an entire separation of the righteous and the wicked" (DC 63:53-54)

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When the Rapture happens, can I have your stuff?

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Call it what you want. Even Talmage called the Godhead the "Trinity"

Anyway, I have no significant disagreements with you on this point.

Even "I" sometimes call the Godhead the "Trinity" because that's what it is, is a Trinity.

However, what most people call "the Trinity" we DO NOT call the Trinity, thus we don't generally use that term, and when we do, we generally clarify.

The "Trinity" is generally known to be a particular theological construct, and we don't believe in it.

Likewise, Talmage didn't believe in "the Trinity", and likewise LDS don't believe in "a Rapture". Does the Rapture have some similarity's and commonality's to what the scriptures and LDS theology states, sure.... But, it's simply not at all the same.

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They "escape" by becoming pure in heart and building and gathering in to the New Jerusalem.

When your rapture doesn't happen, Hughes, don't worry. Look to Missouri, where the people of God will be gathered.

Wow, BookofMormonLuvr, I don't think I have ever agreed with you this much on anything before, LOL! good.gif

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Even "I" sometimes call the Godhead the "Trinity" because that's what it is, is a Trinity.

However, what most people call "the Trinity" we DO NOT call the Trinity, thus we don't generally use that term, and when we do, we generally clarify.

The "Trinity" is generally known to be a particular theological construct, and we don't believe in it.

Likewise, Talmage didn't believe in "the Trinity", and likewise LDS don't believe in "a Rapture". Does the Rapture have some similarity's and commonality's to what the scriptures and LDS theology states, sure.... But, it's simply not at all the same.

I agree with you on this Obi Wan, we can call it a rapture cause the name isn't important, but when speaking about our beliefs with other's it is important to make sure we don't use terminology so we do not confuse non members.

This is why I try my best to use the term First Resurrection instead of rapture personally.

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Typing on my phone, but I wanted to post what Jesus said, "watch and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen"

Seems that Jesus is interested in having his own escape the tribulation.

But that escape refers to the gathering of the saints in Zion and Jerusalem on the Earth not escaping to heaven.

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The Biblical teaching of what is known now as the

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They "escape" by becoming pure in heart and building and gathering in to the New Jerusalem.

When your rapture doesn't happen, Hughes, don't worry. Look to Missouri, where the people of God will be gathered.

Sorry, the context (which I'm so sorry, I didn't include a reference), was Luke 21:36, isn't about building and gathering, rather it's about the tribulation period.

http://en.fairmormon.org/Rapture_and_LDS_theology

Source and scriptural support for Protestant belief

Protestant belief in the rapture is based on Matt. 24:31,39-42; 1 Cor. 15:51-54; and 1 Thess. 4:13-18; 1 Thess. 5:9-10. Although other scriptures might also be applied to this event, their relationship is often questioned even among Protestants. There is also disagreement regarding the rapture's timing in relation to the tribulation period spoken of in Matt. 24:21,29; Mark 13:24; Luke 21:9-26, and Rev. 7:14. According to orthodox Protestant eschatology, the tribulation period will last seven years (two periods of 3 1/2 years; see Dan. 7:25; Dan. 12:7,11; Matt. 24:21-22; Rev. 11:2-3; Rev. 12:6,14; Rev. 13:5). Dan. 9:27 is usually cited in support of this conclusion but Rev. 2:10 provides another figure (10 days or years).

Joseph Smith and modern revelation

Joseph Smith's inspired revision of Matthew 24 informs us that the great tribulation will be "on the Jews and the inhabitants of Jerusalem" (JS-M 1:18) and "after the tribulation of those days... they shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven... and he shall send his angels before him with the great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together the remainder of his elect" (JS-M 1:36-37). DC 29:8 tells us that the "tribulation and desolation shall be upon the wicked," but Joseph Smith added that, "it is a false idea that the Saints will escape all judgment whilst the wicked suffer; for all flesh is subject to suffer, and the righteous shall hardly escape [DC 63:34], still many of the Saints will escape..."[2]

Doctrine and Covenants section 63 provides us with additional insight regarding these events and also explains the LDS belief concerning the translation of believers at the coming of Christ. It states that,

the saints also shall hardly escape; nevertheless, I, the Lord, am with them, and will come down in heaven from the presence of the Father and consume the wicked with unquenchable fire... he that liveth when the Lord shall come, and hath kept the faith, blessed is he; nevertheless, it is appointed to him to die at the age of a man [100 years - Is. 66:20]. Wherefore, children shall grow up until they become old; old men shall die; but they shall not sleep in the dust, but they shall be changed in the twinkling of an eye" (DC 63:34,50-51). It also states that "in the day of the coming of the Son of Man... cometh an entire separation of the righteous and the wicked" (DC 63:53-54)

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Looking for the "I believe in the Rapture, just not in a Pre-Trib rapture" option...

I think the belief in a pre-trib rapture is actually a dangerous believe for our EV friends.

Example:

I remember hearing a caller to the local christian talk radio station (boy a lot of my posts have that comment in them)

This was back in about 2003-2004, and the discussion was whether Saddam Hussein could be the Antichrist. Her conclusion was, "No, he couldn't be cause the antichrist won't be revealed until after the rapture, and that hasn't happened yet"

If you follow her logic to its conclusion, she NEVER has to worry about following the antichrist, because no-one she would follow could ever be the antichrist, because she will be raptured before he is revealed.

If and when "the anti-christ" ever comes to power, I wonder how many Evangelicals will be comfortable following him because they "KNOW" that he can't be the antichrist because the rapture hasn't happened yet.

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Sorry, the context (which I'm so sorry, I didn't include a reference), was Luke 21:36, isn't about building and gathering, rather it's about the tribulation period.

The conclusion from your quote is that the concept of the rapture is indeed found in the bible, as you so aptly pointed out, thanks.

Not sure where you're getting that idea.

Nope. No mention of the "gathering of the saints in Zion and Jerusalem on the Earth."

Rather, the words, "escape all that is about to happen" is directly related to the wrath of God on the earth in the tribulation period, or the end time.

Since you don't accept modern revelation, a discussion on the subject with you is quite pointless. Through modern revelation we know that New Jerusalem/Zion will be the place of safety for the pure in heart in the last days/tribulation period. You don't accept it, so you don't believe it- that is fine. But when it happens, you will know that you have been warned, hopefully your heart will soften, and you will join the Saints in Zion. I want to see as many people there as possible, you included.

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The conclusion from your quote is that the concept of the rapture is indeed found in the bible, as you so aptly pointed out, thanks.

The content of what you use to justify your belief in the Rapture is indeed in the Bible. However it is a wrongheaded idea. The idea that people will be swept up at Jesus's coming is the first ressurection/the second coming and NOT some pre-Tribuation event.

While the scriptures you use to justify your belief are in the Bible, the end understanding you want to gleam from them is false.

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Looking for the "I believe in the Rapture, just not in a Pre-Trib rapture" option...

I think the belief in a pre-trib rapture is actually a dangerous believe for our EV friends.

Example:

I remember hearing a caller to the local christian talk radio station (boy a lot of my posts have that comment in them)

This was back in about 2003-2004, and the discussion was whether Saddam Hussein could be the Antichrist. Her conclusion was, "No, he couldn't be cause the antichrist won't be revealed until after the rapture, and that hasn't happened yet"

If you follow her logic to its conclusion, she NEVER has to worry about following the antichrist, because no-one she would follow could ever be the antichrist, because she will be raptured before he is revealed.

If and when "the anti-christ" ever comes to power, I wonder how many Evangelicals will be comfortable following him because they "KNOW" that he can't be the antichrist because the rapture hasn't happened yet.

When you have a relationship with the real Christ, no anti or pseudo christ will fool you. There is no worry there for a real believer. Praise God!

Since you don't accept modern revelation, a discussion on the subject with you is quite pointless. Through modern revelation we know that New Jerusalem/Zion will be the place of safety for the pure in heart in the last days/tribulation period. You don't accept it, so you don't believe it- that is fine. But when it happens, you will know that you have been warned, hopefully your heart will soften, and you will join the Saints in Zion. I want to see as many people there as possible, you included.

You see, I do believe that the LDS doctrine is correct in this point. Those who are LDS won't be raptured and will be going through the tribulation. I don't mean to be harsh or condescending only frank and forthright, but your reference to "revelation" is what brought it to my attention. Here's the question, if your revelation isn't from God, who is it from? And how are these revelations tested?

I would contend that it is the devil. And the devil will say anything, as he doesn't care what lie you believe, as long as it is one.

As for me, if the revelation doesn't line up with the Biblical test, then it's false. And there are many false prophets in the world.

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The content of what you use to justify your belief in the Rapture is indeed in the Bible. However it is a wrongheaded idea. The idea that people will be swept up at Jesus's coming is the first ressurection/the second coming and NOT some pre-Tribuation event.

While the scriptures you use to justify your belief are in the Bible, the end understanding you want to gleam from them is false.

Then how do you square the two different settings? One is "those days will be like the days of Noah...." And two, "those days will be great earthquakes and the heaven's and the Earth will be shaken..."

One will be like a thief in the night, the other will be seen by all. Two different situations are described for what you are calling the same exact event. How do you reconcile this?

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When you have a relationship with the real Christ, no anti or pseudo christ will fool you. There is no worry there for a real believer. Praise God!

You see, I do believe that the LDS doctrine is correct in this point. Those who are LDS won't be raptured and will be going through the tribulation. I don't mean to be harsh or condescending only frank and forthright, but your reference to "revelation" is what brought it to my attention. Here's the question, if your revelation isn't from God, who is it from? And how are these revelations tested?

I would contend that it is the devil. And the devil will say anything, as he doesn't care what lie you believe, as long as it is one.

As for me, if the revelation doesn't line up with the Biblical test, then it's false. And there are many false prophets in the world.

Here is where to walk to when you are not swept away into heaven...

http://www.ci.independence.mo.us/

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Then how do you square the two different settings? One is "those days will be like the days of Noah...." And two, "those days will be great earthquakes and the heaven's and the Earth will be shaken..."

One will be like a thief in the night, the other will be seen by all. Two different situations are described for what you are calling the same exact event. How do you reconcile this?

How do you reconcile the idea that some people believe that it's pre-Trib and some believe it's post-Trib.

The Rapture is just evangelical mumbo jumbo and is false. It's not worth my time to even bother with.

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