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LDS Guy 1986

Is the doctrine of the Rapture Biblical?

Rapture  

36 members have voted

  1. 1. Is the teaching of the rapture Biblical in your opinion?

    • Yes
      9
    • No
      27
    • Unsure
      0
    • Don't know
      0


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Lareliw    8

Why Missouri?

They "escape" by becoming pure in heart and building and gathering in to the New Jerusalem.

When your rapture doesn't happen, Hughes, don't worry. Look to Missouri, where the people of God will be gathered.

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LDS Guy 1986    38

When you have a relationship with the real Christ, no anti or pseudo christ will fool you. There is no worry there for a real believer. Praise God!

You have obviously never ever read the New Testament if you actually believe this garbage!

Read the Epistles of Paul, Peter, and John, they are constantly correcting the false teachings of anti-christ's in the ancient days!

How about instead of listening to some preacher we listen to Christ! Matthew 24:24 "For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect"

Sorry to burst your bubble friend but even the very elect of God can be misled by the false prophets, and false Christs. So imagine how easy it will be for the Anti-Christ the devil in the flesh to mislead the elect of God in the tribulation, if mere men can mislead the elect of God!

Your man made doctrine are putting your salvation are risk my friend, "I don't mean to be harsh or condescending only frank and forthright,"

You need to read the Bible friend and stop letting a guy with a college degree to decide what is the Word of God for you. "I don't mean to be harsh or condescending only frank and forthright,"

Here's the question, if your revelation isn't from God, who is it from?

Well, they are from God so the point is moot, but to extend an olive branch I will answer. It would come from the same place as the rapture, from men (in raptures made by men in 1738). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapture

And how are these revelations tested?

By the same way any prophet or revelation is tested by the way that we are told by Jesus Christ to test them! "Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep

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LDS Guy 1986    38

Why Missouri?

I will answer this one for you!

According to the beliefs of Mormonism; Independence Missouri is what we call Zion, it is the place that we believe that Christ will go to when he descends from heaven, and from where he will reign over the Earth for 1,000 years. Prior to his second coming the Saints will gather to Zion, while the Tribes of Israel (including the lost ten tribes) will gather to Jerusalem for safety from the Anti-Christ and his armies.

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So in another thread a poster brought up the protestant doctrine of the Rapture:

As found here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapture

We see that this doctrine created around 1738, it states that worthy Christians will be swept away to heaven in a pre-tribulation secret return of Christ before his Second Coming (or as critics like me point out his 3rd Coming), and the unworthy Christians and everyone else are Left Behind.

There has been movies made about this doctrine, books written, yet despite all of this fictional support there isn't any mention of this pre tribulation rescue of the entire Book of Revelations! This seems odd to me that the man who was the second coming unfold in a vision never once mentions this pre tribulation rapture, but instead has the Saint gathering on Earth while being persecuted by the Anti-Christ (I believe rapture supports say this are the unworthy Christians who become worthy after the rapture).

Of all the scriptures, here are the three verses they can find that mention people getting taken by Christ:

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

Note that none of these say where you are taken only that you are taken, not in Revelations it says "And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had receivedhis mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection." (Revelations 20:1-5)

This seems to tell us that the raising of the dead and of the righteous living will happen after Satan is bound, which happens AFTER the tribulation not before the tribulation, while Christ is descending from Heaven to establish his millennial reign.

This is my understanding of the word of God, and as a Mormon I reject all doctrine made by men who are not called as prophets of God, by the proper authority from Jesus Christ, but I admit that I am not unbiased here and while I do not agree with the rapture I did my best to present it as I know of it.

I did believe in the rapture for many years I remember reading the Left Behind books and believing this was a fictional drama about real events which would occur, it was only through deep study of the Book of Revelations and in part to due to my conversion to Mormonism and the discovery that the rapture is a man made doctrine not a biblical doctrine that I have abandoned this doctrine personally.

So I present a few questions:

1) Why isn't the rapture mentioned in Revelations?

2) How do you reconcile ( LDS) the rapture given it's uninspired nature in regards to church beliefs and doctrine regarding revelation and new doctrine?

3) How do you reconcile (non LDS) the rapture with the fact that there is no mention of it in the Book of Revelations?

4) What is your thinking and your reasoning behind your thinking?

Thanks for the input!

I think you are blowing this slightly out of porportion, acting as though it's offical doctrine in Christianity. That is simply not the case. The idea of the rapture is nonessential, meaning one can choose if they want to believe in it or not without it having an affect on their salvation because it is not essential for a Christian.

As to your questions,

1. The word rapture is not mentioned in Revelation for several reason:

a. "rapture" is modern day word that applied to a future event or concept found in the Bible, specifically that believers will be removed from the Earth.

b. (speculative) It's possible that Revelation is writen about the events that occur after the rapture has taken place

2. Not LDS, so moving on to the next question...

3. In addition to my first answer, can I ask why you are limiting this to Revelation? Other scripture hints at the posiblity of a rapture event (yes, just a possiblity; the rapture belief is speculative) such as Matt 24:37-44 and Luke 17:28-35.

4. Well it being a nonessential doctrine, I say believe if you want, but live like you don't. In other words, be prepared regardless. Personally I believe in a rapture based on the verses I gave you, but I'm not banking on it or putting off the words of Christ for the sake of hoping that it happens. I love everything survival and preparedness, so if it does, great and if not, then that's just fine.

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Does that include me too?

unsure.gif

Yep.

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In the sense that some falsely believe that they will be saved from the tribulation, to me it does.

Imagine how many will stop believing in Christ when he doesn't come to save them from the tribulation.

How many will doubt that Christ loves them when there false promises from man are not fulfilled by Christ?

The rapture is one of the deceivers tools to steal the testimonies, IMO.

Also the scriptures doesn't call it a rapture it calls it the First Resurrection, so I will stick with the Bible and leave the non scriptural "rapture" whom ever wish to follow the doctrine of men over the scriptures.

Then their faith is misplaced. Believers are to endure to the end as Chirst has told us to do, not endure until they think the rapture should have occurred.

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LDS Guy 1986    38

3. In addition to my first answer, can I ask why you are limiting this to Revelation? .

Cause Revelation is the entire event unfolding to the Apostle John, he is seeing the entirety to the end times in this prophetic vision. The fact that there is no pre tribulation rapture, or gathering in Revelations to me says it cannot happen. Remember Revelation is a sealed book we cannot add to it or take away from it, if there was a pre tribulation rapture, then it would of been mentioned in Revelation.

Just like if I want to know how God created the Earth I'm going to go to Genesis, if I want to know how God is going to end the Earth I go to Revelations. I don't see how a mix matched handful of various scriptures that never once say that "certain Christians" are to be whisked away to heaven, takes precedent over the prophecies recorded in the Book of Revelations.

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LDS Guy 1986    38

Then their faith is misplaced. Believers are to endure to the end as Chirst has told us to do, not endure until they think the rapture should have occurred.

I agree, which is why I present the evidence against the rapture, because I know several people who are so sure that the rapture is absolute Biblical fact. That Christ is coming for them before the tribulation that I think they wouldn't ever accept that the tribulation was happening around them and gather to Zion or Jerusalem (the places where the righteous are safe). They wouldn't flee Babylon and run to safety as we are told to in Revelations 18 and would potentially perish waiting for Christ to rapture them, or ever worst be deceived by the Anti-Christ (and many do not prepare for the Anti-Christ deception because as worthy Christian's they wrongly believe they will never face him or his armies), after enduring so long in faith. As a God fearing man I cannot think to have the weight on the loss of even one precious soul on my conscience because I sat by and let people continue to believe something that isn't in the Bible.

Non Biblical doctrine is very dangerous, especially when people put as much faith in it as many do with the Rapture.

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Nathair/|\    677

This site will save an e-mail from you to be sent to your unrighteous family and friends after you are raptured. A great way to let them know what you think of them!

http://www.raptureletters.com/

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ELF1024    215

This site will save an e-mail from you to be sent to your unrighteous family and friends after you are raptured. A great way to let them know what you think of them!

http://www.raptureletters.com/

I wonder how many people will have written letters to be released when the "rapture" happens, only to find themselves here on Earth dispite their "belief" they would be taken with the righteous. Nothing more embarassing than having your un-righteous family get "Raptured" but having you get left behind, with your letters delivered to... nobody.

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yahoo.gif

Sweet! I call dibs on the top bunk! LOL

Wait, but I have Underuruphobia... the fear of being on the bottom bunk because a big Uruguayan might be on the top and fall on you.

Seriously though... I had a dream on my mission that my companion's, a big dude from Uruguay, bunk fell through and landed on me. I threw my arms up in the air during the dream and my forearms were bruised for the next week. rofl.gif

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dp

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LDS Guy 1986    38

This site will save an e-mail from you to be sent to your unrighteous family and friends after you are raptured. A great way to let them know what you think of them!

http://www.raptureletters.com/

Yeah, I heard of this sight a few times haven't checked it out though. I don't need an email since there is no pre-tribulation rapture, I will be out there braving the minions of the Anti-Christ (if the end of days happen in my lifetime) preaching the Restored Gospel and winning souls for Christ up to the very last minuet because God never abandons his children! I will be out in the streets preaching the word like I do today, guiding the contrite and broken hearted to Zion the fortress of safety and security from the forces of evil. Waiting for the return of the Lord Jesus Christ in all his terrible glory and splendor, waiting for the true "rapture" the Morning of the First Resurrection!

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This site will save an e-mail from you to be sent to your unrighteous family and friends after you are raptured. A great way to let them know what you think of them!

http://www.raptureletters.com/

Wait... so who get to stay behind and hit the button that will send out the letters!?!

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LDS Guy 1986    38

Wait, but I have Underuruphobia... the fear of being on the bottom bunk because a big Uruguayan might be on the top and fall on you.

Seriously though... I had a dream on my mission that my companion's, a big dude from Uruguay, bunk fell through and landed on me. I threw my arms up in the air during the dream and my forearms were bruised for the next week. rofl.gif

Sorry to hear about the that, but don't worry I am American not Uruguayan so it doesn't apply, so we better reserves our bunks now, least you get stuck with a Uruguayan and have a panic attack!

I wonder if they got a website to reserve a room in Zion, like that rapture letter site?

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LDS Guy 1986    38

Wait... so who get to stay behind and hit the button that will send out the letters!?!

Well, since he says us Mormon's aren't getting raptured I guess we should get the address so we can go hit the button, once all the "good Christians" get raptured!

I wonder how well the push the button gig, pays?

I'm guessing a lot since they are all gone, and don't need money any more!

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Sorry to hear about the that, but don't worry I am American not Uruguayan so it doesn't apply, so we better reserves our bunks now, least you get stuck with a Uruguayan and have a panic attack!

I wonder if they got a website to reserve a room in Zion, like that rapture letter site?

Oooo... good idea... Buy some land and then have reservations for tent space. :P

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I agree, which is why I present the evidence against the rapture, because I know several people who are so sure that the rapture is absolute Biblical fact. That Christ is coming for them before the tribulation that I think they wouldn't ever accept that the tribulation was happening around them and gather to Zion or Jerusalem (the places where the righteous are safe). They wouldn't flee Babylon and run to safety as we are told to in Revelations 18 and would potentially perish waiting for Christ to rapture them, or ever worst be deceived by the Anti-Christ (and many do not prepare for the Anti-Christ deception because as worthy Christian's they wrongly believe they will never face him or his armies), after enduring so long in faith. As a God fearing man I cannot think to have the weight on the loss of even one precious soul on my conscience because I sat by and let people continue to believe something that isn't in the Bible.

Non Biblical doctrine is very dangerous, especially when people put as much faith in it as many do with the Rapture.

Besides telling them that there is nothing 100% solid in regards to the rapture, I think time would be better spent going over what Chirst taught: endure to the end, faith in Chirst, being prepared, etc...that way if the rapture doesn't happen it is of no worry to them, and if it does happen then it is a pleasent surprise.

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Well, since he says us Mormon's aren't getting raptured I guess we should get the address so we can go hit the button, once all the "good Christians" get raptured!

I wonder how well the push the button gig, pays?

I'm guessing a lot since they are all gone, and don't need money any more!

I'd want my paycheck in advance, since they admit they'll be skipping town.

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LDS Guy 1986    38

Oooo... good idea... Buy some land and then have reservations for tent space. :P

I think all the land at Zion is already owned between LDS, Community of Christ, and The Temple Lot!

Guess we will have to set up shop in the suburbs, and lose out on the prime real estate! cray.gif

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LDS Guy 1986    38

Besides telling them that there is nothing 100% solid in regards to the rapture, I think time would be better spent going over what Chirst taught: endure to the end, faith in Chirst, being prepared, etc...that way if the rapture doesn't happen it is of no worry to them, and if it does happen then it is a pleasent surprise.

Well, for you that position make perfect sense, but as LDS we don't believe that there is any possibility of a rapture so I don't talk about the possibility of a rapture, especially since the Book of Revelations makes no reference to it at all.

But I understand your position, I just have differing beliefs as LDS, we also teach enduring to the end, faith in Christ, and preparing (both spiritually and temporally)

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LDS Guy 1986    38

I'd want my paycheck in advance, since they admit they'll be skipping town.

Oh yeah! Your right, if we just show up at there homes to collect our pay after they are all gone the cops might think we are looters and shoot us! help.gif

Good idea on the advance pay thing! yahoo.gif

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