Good people, leaving the church

[Palerider]

100% home teaching, dad-blastit!!

and

10% of your income

Hey........I actually paid a tenth for quite a while even after I left "spiritually" but I made it all out to fast offerings so it would generally go to help the poor. I couldn't do home teaching any more because I don't like spying.................

Just kidding...........

[Hamba Tuhan]

No, Just unwilling or unable to bear the emotional cost . Plus do the work of making one's world paradigm make sense after the loss of the Mormon paradigm. Better to stay where things are "comfortable".

It's a tough job......

OK, this time I think I've really got it. It's not necessarily that I'm intellectually inferior (though perhaps that's still an option?); I'm just lazier and/or less able of tackling intellectually tough jobs than you are?

[Palerider]

Which narrative do you think would be more recognisable to a Latter-day Saint who was baptised during the Kirtland era, followed the Prophet to Missouri and then to Nauvoo, and ended up travelling west to establish the Kingdom in the Rocky Mountains: the Church history Institute manual or Grant Palmer's book?

I believe you just made my point......

[Mark Beesley]

Frankly, I'm more concerned about the bad people that stay in the Church than I am with the good ones that leave.

Really? I find that rather curious . . . and troubling.

[Hamba Tuhan]

I believe you just made my point......

So our random LDS repeatedly gave up her homes and eventually moved to a desert because she knew that Joseph Smith was a con man who ripped off an obscure German story in his fabrication of the Book of Mormon and who completely made up stories about angelic visitations years after the fact just to shore up his power??!!

BTW, I just checked a high school history text, and there is NOTHING whatsoever in the short narrative on the moon landing about how it was all staged by NASA and filmed in a movie studio. There is also nothing in there about personal conflicts between the astronauts. I can't believe we tolerate this sanitised pablum to be taught to our kids.

[Palerider]

OK, this time I think I've really got it. It's not necessarily that I'm intellectually inferior (though perhaps that's still an option?); I'm just lazier and/or less able of tackling intellectually tough jobs than you are?

Any of the above will do but I would hope that most have more integrity than you indicate IN YOUR REASONS (not you personally). It's not unlike the good wife who finds lipstick on her husbands collar on a fairly consistent basis but always finds a way to rationalize it because the effect of a conflict, divorce, loss of "face" in the community, effect on children, possible destitution......all lead her to stay in the marriage and engage in an exercise of denial. PLUS! And this is important......Her husband actually treats her pretty good when he's home.......he has some good qualities.

[Hamba Tuhan]

It's not unlike the good wife who finds lipstick on her husbands collar on a fairly consistent basis but always finds a way to rationalize it because the effect of a conflict, divorce, loss of "face" in the community, effect on children, possible destitution......all lead her to stay in the marriage and engage in an exercise of denial.

Wait, so I supposedly actually know the truth already, but I'm in a state of denial because I want to avoid the complications of acting with integrity as you have done?

[BookofMormonLuvr]

<br>The way I see it.....it is "belly aching." YOU REALLY HAVEN'T LEFT....YOU ARE STILL HERE POSTING AGAINST THE CHURCH. SO THEREFORE YOU ARE "BELLY ACHING."  Move on, leave the Church and have/live your life and don't post against the Church in anyway shape or form. Leave it like you claim you have done. If not then you are "belly aching." Own it!!!!<br><br>I once heard these verse were the best commentary on Anti-Mormons and Apostates.  <br><i>WARNING: The following contents may be offensive to the "blame shifter." If so, <u><b>DO NOT READ</b></u>. The Gospel is a two sided sword so there could be great harm if not handled correctly.<br></i>

<br><div><br></div><div>Why are you so upset that I would share my experiences with regards to my faith journey? LDS Missionaries do it all the time. If you are secure in your faith, my musings will not bother you in the least.

</div><div><br></div><div>If, as a believing RLDS Restorationist, if I don't share my beliefs and what I have found, I would be derelict in proclaiming the Gospel which I believe in, and be held accountable before God...</div><div><br></div><div></div>

<div>D&C 88:81</div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: 'Lucida Grande', 'Lucida Sans Unicode', 'Lucida Sans', Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; color: rgb(47, 57, 58); line-height: 18px; ">Behold, I sent you out to testify and <span class="highlight" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; border-top-width: 0px; border-right-width: 0px; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-left-width: 0px; border-style: initial; border-color: initial; outline-width: 0px; outline-style: initial; outline-color: initial; font-size: 13px; vertical-align: baseline; background-image: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: rgb(254, 251, 191); background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; ">warn</span> the people, and it becometh every man who hath been <span class="highlight" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; border-top-width: 0px; border-right-width: 0px; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-left-width: 0px; border-style: initial; border-color: initial; outline-width: 0px; outline-style: initial; outline-color: initial; font-size: 13px; vertical-align: baseline; background-image: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: rgb(254, 251, 191); background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; ">warned</span> to <span class="highlight" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; border-top-width: 0px; border-right-width: 0px; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-left-width: 0px; border-style: initial; border-color: initial; outline-width: 0px; outline-style: initial; outline-color: initial; font-size: 13px; vertical-align: baseline; background-image: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: rgb(254, 251, 191); background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; ">warn</span> his <span class="highlight" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; border-top-width: 0px; border-right-width: 0px; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-left-width: 0px; border-style: initial; border-color: initial; outline-width: 0px; outline-style: initial; outline-color: initial; font-size: 13px; vertical-align: baseline; background-image: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: rgb(254, 251, 191); background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; ">neighbor</span>.</span></div>

<div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: 'Lucida Grande', 'Lucida Sans Unicode', 'Lucida Sans', Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; color: rgb(47, 57, 58); line-height: 18px; "></span></div><div><br></div><div>As it concerns reaching out to my LDS brothers and sisters, of necessity issues of controversy will arise. I cannot help it, it is part of the package. So my posting here is not a case of "can't leave the church alone", it is a case of that's what I have to talk about to share my story.</div>

[BookofMormonLuvr]

Ugh... why does the editing program hate me?

[Palerider]

So our random LDS repeatedly gave up her homes and eventually moved to a desert because she knew that Joseph Smith was a con man who ripped off an obscure German story in his fabrication of the Book of Mormon and who completely made up stories about angelic visitations years after the fact just to shore up his power??!!

BTW, I just checked a high school history text, and there is NOTHING whatsoever in the short narrative on the moon landing about how it was all staged by NASA and filmed in a movie studio. There is also nothing in there about personal conflicts between the astronauts. I can't believe we tolerate this sanitised pablum to be taught to our kids.

No, your random LDS gave up her homes etc. because she didn't know Joseph was not what he said he was.....there were many who figured it out before hand and stayed in the midwest....actually the majority as I understand it.

Sorry, I can't account for what is and isn't taught in highschool these days. If you want the "staged" version in there, you go big guy.

[Palerider]

Wait, so I supposedly actually know the truth already, but I'm in a state of denial because I want to avoid the complications of acting with integrity as you have done?

Wouldn't even attempt to figure out what you do or don't know...........

[Hamba Tuhan]

No, your random LDS gave up her homes etc. because she didn't know Joseph was not what he said he was.....there were many who figured it out before hand and stayed in the midwest....actually the majority as I understand it.

I see. She must have been intellectually impaired, lazy, and/or too wed to comfort, too.

If you want the "staged" version in there, you go big guy.

So you only appreciate Grant Palmer-style 'history' when it comes to religous issues?

[Pahoran]

I believe you just made my point......

Oh, so it's your point that the actual participants would find what you so condescendingly describe as "pablum" to be far more recognisable than Palmer's ridiculous revisionism?

Who knew?

Regards,

Pahoran

[Pahoran]

No, Just unwilling or unable to bear the emotional cost . Plus do the work of making one's world paradigm make sense after the loss of the Mormon paradigm. Better to stay where things are "comfortable".

Tell us, PR: is there any possible way for you to be any more condescending?

The more people like you presume to tell us what's in our minds, the more evidence you provide that you really don't understand how believing Latter-day Saints think.

Which, in turn, raises other questions.

I'm reminded of Hugh Nibley's shrewd observation that the 19th century publishing apostates (mostly ghosted by Beadle) were all such wonderfully good Mormons -- but, at the same time, they fall over themselves assuring their readers that they never really believed all of that nonsense.

It's a tough job...... I certainly didn't ask for it. I just wanted to know why Hiram Page thought he could get revelation from a frigging rock...........

Now there's rationality.................

Not only did he think he could, he thought he actually had.

I'm sure there are those who, knowing nothing at all, would presume that he "must have" got the idea from Joseph.

Those better-informed realise that he almost certainly got the idea independently.

What's telling is that Oliver Cowdery was able to convince Hiram that his revelations weren't all that, and that he should forget about them.

Regards,

Pahoran

[TAO]

A friend of mine recently started a website devoted to the stories of those who have left Mormonism:

http://www.iamanexmormon.com/

I watched a few of these videos, the other night, and was impressed by the sincerity and the quality of people that appear to be leaving the church over historical issues. I do admit, however, that some of them are cheesy, like the guy who got booted for making the missionary calendars. I and others are often accused of leaving the church for reasons of weakness or sin. The usual, "you wanted to drink and have sex" accusations. I also know that many people do leave the church for these reasons, though I was not one of them. I left over historical reasons and evidence that the church is not what it claims to be. It appears, from this site, that I am in good company. Would you agree with this? Is this a concern for believers?

Thanks all in advance.

It is a concern for those who are struggling at the time.

And yes, I would say people leave the church because of weakness and sin... but that weakness, that sin... all it really is is doubting.

Yes, doubting is the thing that is truly deadly, in terms of leaving the church. The other things, if there are other things, are only precursors for doubt, that they are. It's the doubting that is what is deadly. And I wouldn't necessarily blame you for doubting - sometimes I doubt - I think we all doubt at times. But the mistake, is letting your doubt overcome you, or not recognizing that you are going through a phase of doubt.

I would say that doubting is a serious concern for believers. It is so easy to doubt these days, life is taken so casually, so sarcastically, so negatively these days oftentimes. You are immersed in it at school or at work, in conversations with others and listening to the radio and television. It's no surprise doubting comes so easily; it's a very easy mistake to make. It plugs your head, and makes everything sorta foggy. Sometimes you just want it to get out. Luckily, there is seminary, and church, and the scriptures, and family, and the lds.org website to help deal with it... they can really help when you are in a bind.

I have really appreciated seminary while growing up in high school - it starts off my day positively - even when I have had a crummy bad night or evening... it sets me to feeling better. It gets me to talk to the Lord and start the process that needs to happen. I also appreciate alone time - time where I am isolated from others and by myself, where I can think and talk to God without temptation, without fear, without others knowing. Total privacy, is very useful, if used in the right way, so to say. My scriptures also save me other times... their words of peace speak to my mind, opening up the connection once again. All of these things have helped me, when I was not strong enough, to continue on the right path, the one God has chosen for me. I am so grateful to him for this. So very grateful... so grateful indeed =).

I think, perhaps, the most dangerous time, is for those who do not have knowledge about the 'difficult subjects' in the church. They don't know, that there is an explanation for all of them, that they are all understandable. They don't know to look to God for the answer - they doubt quickly, because they have not experienced such before. This is a scary time - and it can lead to falls - but it can also lead to a new and greater happiness. Getting to know the weaknesses of the church, though it sometimes can cause trouble for me, especially in terms of the vast cynicism that is across today's world, can also lead to great happiness, understanding, and peace with God. It has let me learn what is really important. I don't know when God will end my sojourn through apologetic, but it has been a very interesting and special experience for me.

Best Wishes, with Kindness,

TAO

[Bill Hamblin]

Maybe people should spend more time in introspection and self-reflection and less time speculating about the emotional, intellectual and spiritual state of others.

[Hannah Rebekah]

Why are you so upset that I would share my experiences with regards to my faith journey? LDS Missionaries do it all the time. If you are secure in your faith, my musings will not bother you in the least.

If, as a believing RLDS Restorationist, if I don't share my beliefs and what I have found, I would be derelict in proclaiming the Gospel which I believe in, and be held accountable before God...As it concerns reaching out to my LDS brothers and sisters, of necessity issues of controversy will arise. I cannot help it, it is part of the package. So my posting here is not a case of "can't leave the church alone", it is a case of that's what I have to talk about to share my story.

I'm not upset....I'm just infatic!!!

I have not problem with you sharing you beliefs, I love to learn the beliefs of others. As Christians we are all taught that concept from the Savior.

I just don't buy into the premise that you have to tear down your old belief system to advance your new beliefs....that's of course if you are secure in your own faith. Or that by reaching out....that controversy has to arise. Why does there have to be controversy? Beside, my comments are also in general to those who leave for all the reasons that have been brought up on this thread. We haven't even mentioned those who leave because they don't want to commit their time or attention to the gospel. Many are not willing to put time restraints on their lives which goes along with serving in the gospel. Many are very good people but these excuses IMO are just lame.

And I see no need for a song and dance called "Blame Shifting" to share your own beliefs. If you or anyone else left the Church for whatever reason then so be it. If you want to share your new beliefs as you say, then do it. These are two totally different activities. I would hope that our new converts don't go back to their old faiths and blame them with all sorts of excuses of why they became members of the LDS Church. I would hope that they, on their faith journey, share when and where they can their new found testimony of the truths they now have and avoid all controversy.

I personally feel saddened for those who have lost their testimony and have left and I pray they will come back someday. The gospel is such a jewel of unimaginable worth in my life. I just don't buy into all the excuses given for leaving the Church. And if I sound impatient in my views then I apologize. But the history one is the hardest to understand for me. Like I said before, if the Church ever taught: "our history is infallible" then a case could be made....but that is just not how it is. History (just by its nature) can never make those claims.

[Mortal Man]

Ah yes, if only we were all as intellectually 'curious' as you, then we'd join you in your apostacy?

Not necessarily. And I'm not an apostate. I'm a heretic.

To me, this is the ex-Mormon counterpart to the 'you just left cos you wanted to drink' claim.

No, that would be apples and oranges. The comparison is not between all apostates and all TBMs but only a small subset of each. There are many reasons for leaving and many reasons for staying. It would be pointless, for example, to compare blond high school cheerleaders to Caltech physicists in determining the veracity of M theory.

In other words, 'the only reason you stayed is because you're not as smart/curious/committed to truth/brave as I am.'

As Mola mentioned, I haven't left the church. That decision involves more than just academic considerations.

[Palerider]

I see. She must have been intellectually impaired, lazy, and/or too wed to comfort, too.

Your judgement not mine.

So you only appreciate Grant Palmer-style 'history' when it comes to religous issues?

I appreciate honest history (when one can find it). And I'm glad to see the church having to confront it's own.

[Libs]

Maybe people should spend more time in introspection and self-reflection and less time speculating about the emotional, intellectual and spiritual state of others.

I'd like to second that.

[ChristKnight]

Such a phenomenon obviously isn't limited to the LDS Church. It happens in all churches and religions.

[Palerider]

Pahoran,

Tell us, PR: is there any possible way for you to be any more condescending?

I feel certain that I could learn boatloads from you but as that is neither a prospect I could look fondly on or a direction I care to go, I'll have to refuse any offer.

I am curious however to know why you avoided answering "Lib's" question put to you on another thread regarding similar topics:

"Do you think it's impossible to leave the LDS Church for principled reasons? Or is that just completely out of the realm of possibility (in your opinion)?"

Hmmm.........

[Bernard Gui]

I'm reminded of the parable of the sower.....

Bernard

[Sky]

A friend of mine recently started a website devoted to the stories of those who have left Mormonism:

http://www.iamanexmormon.com/

I watched a few of these videos, the other night, and was impressed by the sincerity and the quality of people that appear to be leaving the church over historical issues. I do admit, however, that some of them are cheesy, like the guy who got booted for making the missionary calendars. I and others are often accused of leaving the church for reasons of weakness or sin. The usual, "you wanted to drink and have sex" accusations. I also know that many people do leave the church for these reasons, though I was not one of them. I left over historical reasons and evidence that the church is not what it claims to be. It appears, from this site, that I am in good company. Would you agree with this? Is this a concern for believers?

Thanks all in advance.

The creators of this website clearly got their idea from the 'I'm a Mormon' profiles on Mormon.org. It was our idea first, but I guess they thought they needed some attention and airtime, too. And I must say, for people who supposedly have left the Church, they sure seem obsessed about it. If I were to truly move beyond Mormonism, I would try to do it more quietly and respectfully, and not disparage those who continue to believe (is this even possible)?

[Duncan]

The creators of this website clearly got their idea from the 'I'm a Mormon' profiles on Mormon.org. It was our idea first, but I guess they thought they needed some attention and airtime, too. And I must say, for people who supposedly have left the Church, they sure seem obsessed about it. If I were to truly move beyond Mormonism, I would try to do it more quietly and respectfully, and not disparage those who continue to believe (is this even possible)?

Are those ex Mormon profiles broadcast or just on youtube?