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volgadon

The JST and the Psalms

11 posts in this topic

The JST is a true translation, in the common meaning of the term. The idea that it is something else is a load of crap.

-Zerinus.

In another thread I replied to Zerinus that I could show this position to be mistaken, using the psalms.

Let us use Psalm 24, verses 7-10, as a case study.

The Masoretic Text.

?????? ?????????, ??????????, ?????????????, ???????? ??????;

????????, ?????? ?????????

??? ???, ?????? ?????????:

??????, ??????? ?????????; ??????, ???????? ?????????

?????? ?????????, ??????????, ????????, ???????? ??????;

???????, ?????? ?????????

??? ???? ???, ?????? ?????????:

?????? ????????--???? ?????? ????????? ?????

Transliteration.

Seu shearim rosheichem wehinaseu pithhey olam

weyavo melech hakavod.

mi zeh melech hakavod

YHWH izuz wegibbor YHWH gibbor milhamah.

Seu shearim rosheichem useu pithhey olam

weyavo melech hakavod.

Mi hu zeh melech hakavod

YHWH tzavaoth--hu melech hakavod selah.

The KJV.

Lift up your heads, O ye gates; and be ye lift up, ye everlasting doors; and the King of glory shall come in.

Who is this King of glory? The LORD strong and mighty, the LORD mighty in battle.

Lift up your heads, O ye gates; even lift them up, ye everlasting doors; and the King of glory shall come in.

Who is this King of glory? The LORD of hosts, he is the King of glory. Selah.

The JST.

Lift up your heads, O ye generations of Jacob; and be ye lifted up; and the Lord strong and mighty; the Lord mighty in battle, who is the king of glory, shall establish you forever.

And he will roll away the heavens; and will come down to redeem him people; to make you an everlasting name; to establish you upon his everlasting rock.

Lift up your heads, O ye generations of Jacob; lift up your heads, ye everlasting generations, and the Lord of hosts, the king of kings;

Even the king of glory shall come unto you; and shall redeem his people, and shall establish them in righteousness. Selah.

Were we to take the position that the JST is a literal translation, then the psalm would read like this.

S'a dor Yaakov rosheicha wehinase we-YHWH izuz wegibbor YHWH gibbor milhamah asher hu melech hakavod yechonenecha netzah.

Wayiggol et hashamayim wayered lig'ol et amo laasot lachem shem olam lechonenchem al sela olam asher lamo.

S'a rosheicha dor Yaakov s'a rosheicha dor olam we-YHWH tsavaoth melech hamelachim

Melech hakavod yavo eleichem wayig'al et amo amo wayechonenam betsedek selah.

The JST breaks up the question and answer format, and makes the song (yes, the song), clumsy and unwieldly. It also introduces phrases borrowed from Isaiah, and from other psalms, and even from Malachi. It obviously is not a literal translation, but follows in the spirit of the Aramaic renditions, and even a modern Orthodox Jewish paraphrase of the psalms.

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Here is the text from Yesod Malchut a recent commentary on the psalms by Yosef Shalom Halevi Weinfeld. The commentary takes the form of a paraphrase into modern Hebrew and is placed under the biblical text.

Harimu shaarei hamikdash et mashkofeichem vehitromemu shaarei hamikdash veyavo veshaareichem hamelech hanichbad.

Mi hu zeh hamelech hanichbad H[ashem] hehazak vehagibbor H[ashem] hagover bemilhamot.

Harimu shaarei hamikdash et mashkofeichem vehitromemu shaarei hamikdash veyavo veshaareichem hamelech hanichbad.

Mi hu zeh hamelech hanichbad H[ashem] hamoshel bashamyim uvaaretz hu hamelech hanichbad leolam.

Lift up your lintels temple gates and rise up temple gates, and the honoured king will enter your gates.

Who is the honoured king, Ha-Shem (The Name) strong and mighty, Ha-Shem who is victorious in wars.

Lift up your lintels temple gates and rise up temple gates, and the honoured king will enter your gates.

Who is the honoured king, Ha-Shem who reigns over heaven and earth, he is the honoured king for ever.

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The JST breaks up the question and answer format, and makes the song (yes, the song), clumsy and unwieldly. It also introduces phrases borrowed from Isaiah, and from other psalms, and even from Malachi. It obviously is not a literal translation, but follows in the spirit of the Aramaic renditions, and even a modern Orthodox Jewish paraphrase of the psalms.

Great demonstration Volg! Well done.

Now we know wherein lies the need for a laxative.

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Perhaps that is why we, non-LDS Restorationists, refer to it as the "Inspired Version", not the "Joseph Smith Translation"?

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In another thread I replied to Zerinus that I could show this position to be mistaken, using the psalms.

Let us use Psalm 24, verses 7-10, as a case study.

The Masoretic Text.

?????? ?????????, ??????????, ?????????????, ???????? ??????;

????????, ?????? ?????????

??? ???, ?????? ?????????:

??????, ??????? ?????????; ??????, ???????? ?????????

?????? ?????????, ??????????, ????????, ???????? ??????;

???????, ?????? ?????????

??? ???? ???, ?????? ?????????:

?????? ????????--???? ?????? ????????? ?????

Transliteration.

Seu shearim rosheichem wehinaseu pithhey olam

weyavo melech hakavod.

mi zeh melech hakavod

YHWH izuz wegibbor YHWH gibbor milhamah.

Seu shearim rosheichem useu pithhey olam

weyavo melech hakavod.

Mi hu zeh melech hakavod

YHWH tzavaoth--hu melech hakavod selah.

The KJV.

Lift up your heads, O ye gates; and be ye lift up, ye everlasting doors; and the King of glory shall come in.

Who is this King of glory? The LORD strong and mighty, the LORD mighty in battle.

Lift up your heads, O ye gates; even lift them up, ye everlasting doors; and the King of glory shall come in.

Who is this King of glory? The LORD of hosts, he is the King of glory. Selah.

The JST.

Lift up your heads, O ye generations of Jacob; and be ye lifted up; and the Lord strong and mighty; the Lord mighty in battle, who is the king of glory, shall establish you forever.

And he will roll away the heavens; and will come down to redeem him people; to make you an everlasting name; to establish you upon his everlasting rock.

Lift up your heads, O ye generations of Jacob; lift up your heads, ye everlasting generations, and the Lord of hosts, the king of kings;

Even the king of glory shall come unto you; and shall redeem his people, and shall establish them in righteousness. Selah.

Were we to take the position that the JST is a literal translation, then the psalm would read like this.

S'a dor Yaakov rosheicha wehinase we-YHWH izuz wegibbor YHWH gibbor milhamah asher hu melech hakavod yechonenecha netzah.

Wayiggol et hashamayim wayered lig'ol et amo laasot lachem shem olam lechonenchem al sela olam asher lamo.

S'a rosheicha dor Yaakov s'a rosheicha dor olam we-YHWH tsavaoth melech hamelachim

Melech hakavod yavo eleichem wayig'al et amo amo wayechonenam betsedek selah.

The JST breaks up the question and answer format, and makes the song (yes, the song), clumsy and unwieldly. It also introduces phrases borrowed from Isaiah, and from other psalms, and even from Malachi. It obviously is not a literal translation, but follows in the spirit of the Aramaic renditions, and even a modern Orthodox Jewish paraphrase of the psalms.

First of all your post does not address my original post. It included a lot more that you are not addressing. You are only addressing a small part of my argument, and you are not doing a very good job of that either. You have shown us how JST Psalm 24 varies from the KJV, but your argument does not prove that it is not a direct translation from an alternative manuscript. Your statement that "The JST breaks up the question and answer format, and makes the song . . . clumsy and unwieldy" is just your opinion, and does not prove anything. It is not a valid argument to bring. And your continuation that "It also introduces phrases borrowed from Isaiah, and from other psalms, and even from Malachi" is another invalid argument that merely expresses your opinion and does not prove the point. And your conclusion that "It obviously is not a literal translation, . . ." is simply not a valid logical deduction from the premises you have taken for granted. It is an expression of your opinion at best, and does not prove your conclusion to be true. There is nothing "obvious" about the conclusion you draw from that statement. That is just poor logic. And at the same time you fail to address all of the other points I had raised, which you are completely ignoring.

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Ok, Zerinus, explain to me why the question and answer structure which is found throughout this psalm is suddenly broken when we come to the gates.

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You have shown us how JST Psalm 24 varies from the KJV, but your argument does not prove that it is not a direct translation from an alternative manuscript.

I have shown how it varies from the Hebrew text, and from the structure of the psalm. It is enough of a deviation to warrant it being called an entirely new psalm, indeed, there are far more differences here than between Psalms 14 and 53.

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Ok, Zerinus, explain to me why the question and answer structure which is found throughout this psalm is suddenly broken when we come to the gates.

Perhaps that is how the text that Joseph Smith was inspired to translate it from originally said it that way; or perhaps the Psalms being poetry allows the translator much greater freedom in how he is going to render it. The case study you have chosen to demonstrate your point is not the best one to use for that purpose, because it is poetry, and poetry lends itself to widely different translations. That is the nature of poetry. Two people translating the same poem are likely to end up with two different versions that look different from each other. The KJV renders "gates" literally as "gates". Joseph Smith apparently was inspired to understand that by "gates" is meant the "generations of Jacob," and therefore renders it that way. That is the nature of poetry. It is not a good case study to demonstrate your point.

I have shown how it varies from the Hebrew text, and from the structure of the psalm. It is enough of a deviation to warrant it being called an entirely new psalm, indeed, there are far more differences here than between Psalms 14 and 53.

It could have even been a different psalm; or more likely the explanation is the one I gave above. In poetic expression "gates" was meant to convey the meaning of the "generations of Jacob," and Joseph Smith was inspired to render it that way. And that applies to the remaining differences too.

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Perhaps that is how the text that Joseph Smith was inspired to translate it from originally said it that way; or perhaps the Psalms being poetry allows the translator much greater freedom in how he is going to render it. The case study you have chosen to demonstrate your point is not the best one to use for that purpose, because it is poetry, and poetry lends itself to widely different translations. That is the nature of poetry. Two people translating the same poem are likely to end up with two different versions that look different from each other. The KJV renders "gates" literally as "gates". Joseph Smith apparently was inspired to understand that by "gates" is meant the "generations of Jacob," and therefore renders it that way. That is the nature of poetry. It is not a good case study to demonstrate your point.

Poetry however doesn't lend itself to insert ideas that have no relation to the actual words.

It could have even been a different psalm;

If so, then it can hardly be an actual translation of Ps. 24, and we are left with the question of why Joseph designated it as Ps. 24.

or more likely the explanation is the one I gave above. In poetic expression "gates" was meant to convey the meaning of the "generations of Jacob," and Joseph Smith was inspired to render it that way. And that applies to the remaining differences too.

Can you show me an examples of "gates" in Hebrew poetic expression as a synonym of "generations of Jacob"? Are we to read "open unto me the generations of Jacob of righteousnes and I will enter them"?

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You have yet to answer my question regarding structure.

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Poetry however doesn't lend itself to insert ideas that have no relation to the actual words.

Actually it does. A word in poetry can be used to convey a wealth of meaning other than the literal dictionary meaning attached to it. The gate is used extensively with rich imagery in Hebrew poetic and prophetic literature. The gate is the entrance to a city. If the gate is conquered, then the city is conquered. It is used symbolically to represent the city itself; and the city of Zion especially in prophetic literature symbolizes the house of Israel; therefore the gate also by association can carry the same symbolic meaning.

If so, then it can hardly be an actual translation of Ps. 24, and we are left with the question of why Joseph designated it as Ps. 24.

I think it is a translation of the same psalm; the changes being partly due to alteration in the manuscript, and partly due to a difference in translation.

Can you show me an examples of "gates" in Hebrew poetic expression as a synonym of "generations of Jacob"? Are we to read "open unto me the generations of Jacob of righteousnes and I will enter them"?

See above. In prose the word "gate" might not be appropriate for that kind of meaning; but in poetry it might be.

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