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Thunderfire

Zion, What's the Hold Up?

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In April 1947 one of the prophets of our church (Israel A Smith-great grandson of Joseph Smith Jr) brought forth the following as the mind and will of God regarding Zion:

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1) Are we responsible for bringing forth Zion

Absolutely.

2) Should Zion be seen as

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1) Are we responsible for bringing forth Zion or will God do this in his own due time regardless of our spiritual condition?

Of course, unless you expect Satan to bring forth the return of righteousness government to the Earth! LOL

2) Should Zion be seen as

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What's the hold up? In our economy-obsessed industrial age (though one could make the argument that every age has been economy-obsessed), there are those who believe the

sums it up:
Austin, the Cold War is over!

Finally those capitalist pigs will pay for their crimes, eh? Eh comrades? Eh?

Austin... we won.

Oh, smashing, groovy, yay capitalism!

Just thought I'd beat everyone to the war of words between the proponents of Christian socialism and those of divine capitalism that was bound to unfold. :P

EDIT: Looks like I was already beaten to it somewhat.

On a serious note, I've been somewhat puzzled on how the Church is to achieve a globalized Zion. I understand the building of local communities (local Zions, if they can be appropriately called such) as well as the abstract principle of "one heart and one mind." But so much of what we find in the D&C regarding consecration and the building of Zion is so far removed from the networks of today that I sometimes have difficulty figuring out how we as a global Church are supposed to pull off a global Zion in light of conflicting secular authorities and governments.

Autonomous local communities seem to be the key to this success. Nonetheless, one could possibly argue that being "one heart and one mind" with your local community is not the same as being "one heart and one mind" with other various Zion communities.

Thoughts?

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Autonomous local communities seem to be the key to this success. Nonetheless, one could possibly argue that being "one heart and one mind" with your local community is not the same as being "one heart and one mind" with other various Zion communities.

Thoughts?

There should be no such thing as "differences from one Zion to the next" each Stake of Zion is as united with each other as they are with every other Stake of Zion. There is no Zion without perfect unity, so contention between Stakes of Zion means there is no Zion.

Does that make sense?

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Thoughts?

I've stewed over these quandaries as well.

The solution?

It's going to take an old testament style Divine intervention (as predicted in the revelations) in order for it to happen.

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I've stewed over these quandaries as well.

The solution?

It's going to take an old testament style Divine intervention (as predicted in the revelations) in order for it to happen.

Doesn't the people gather to Zion and Jerusalem before the return of Christ in revelations?

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Of course we know that we are not doing everything that God asks of us, if we were we wouldn't be getting counseled every six months by the General Authorities to stop following the ways of sin and to follow the ways of Christ.

My comments were not directed to any one group, but served as an introspection into my own soul. I was soundly convicted by the testimony of the man who "conversed" with the inhabitants of Enoch's city. They told him they did everything that God asked and Zion unfolded in there midst.

For me, this is very black and white. Like the sound bite in the movie "Field of Dreams", If you build it he will come... The promise is that if we do everything the Lord requires then Zion will again come to the earth. Like I said, this was very convicting for me. What am I not doing? Are you doing something which is keeping "me" from achieving Zion on earth?

Then too, are our leaders doing everything necessary so they may actually show to us their success which is enough for us to finally believe and do the same? I often wonder if it is enough just to tell someone to stop following the ways of sin when the "powers of heaven with them" would be a better example of proving the fruitage of doing just that. I have nothing against the leaders, for that matter ALL priesthood members should be seen as leaders in the Holy Order of the Son of God. Yet it seems like the blind may be leading the blind if the example is not such a driving force with us that nothing will keep us from pursuing heaven on earth.

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Yet it seems like the blind may be leading the blind if the example is not such a driving force with us that nothing will keep us from pursuing heaven on earth.

Remember what D&C 84 tells us, we are to lead through the spirit which works in patience, persuasion, long suffering, and unfeigned love. The Apostles have the path to Zion in there hands, the council us every six months how to follow this path by reasoning with us and persuading us to choose the right. They lead by example by living righteous lives of service and humility,if we choose to ignore there council it is not there fault but ours. The Church should never force righteousness on us, we choose, to force is to rebel against God like Lucifer did.

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On a serious note, I've been somewhat puzzled on how the Church is to achieve a globalized Zion. I understand the building of local communities (local Zions, if they can be appropriately called such) as well as the abstract principle of "one heart and one mind."

Thoughts?

Good thoughts and thank you for sharing!

While I do not want to take any scripture out of context, I do believe we get a hint at what will happen.

In III Nephi(9:94 rlds) we are told that: "And when that day shall come, kings shall shut their mouths; for that which had not been told them, shall they see; and that which they had not heard, shall they consider..."

and then the imagery from Isaiah:

"Many people will come and say, 'Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lrod, to the house of the God of Jacob. He will teach us his ways, so that we may walk in is paths. The law will go out from Zion, the word of the Lord from Jerusalem..." (Isaiah 2:3)

Both of these verses hint at how the people will "see" what is going on and stream to it. They will consider things they never before considered "seeing" the living example of what it means to live in heaven on earth.

So I do not believe it MUST be the church which does this, rather it is a sovereign movement of God upon the earth. He does the work, we only assist.

But then finally, will there really be "local Zions" when Joseph brought forth revelation stating the exact place it will be? (Independence, Missouri)

Appreciate your thoughts!

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I read somewhere that when Satan is bound during the millenium, it will be our faithfulness that binds him. Need to find that reference.

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I read somewhere that when Satan is bound during the millenium, it will be our faithfulness that binds him. Need to find that reference.

Could you try and find that reference please, I think it is Christ who binds Satan not the Saints.

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Could you try and find that reference please, I think it is Christ who binds Satan not the Saints.

During the Millennium, Satan will be bound. This means he will not have power to tempt those who are living at that time (see D&C 101:28). The

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In my opinion, there are going to have to be some significant external changes that set the stage for a critical mass of Church members who are willing to live the law of the Celestial kingdom, which is the law of Zion. One of the things Enoch's people did was to separate themselves out of the world, both physically and spiritually. We're too intertwined in our present societal situations for Zion to take root; there's not enough critical mass in the wards and stakes to cause it to become self-sustaining, in a sense.

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During the Millennium, Satan will be bound. This means he will not have power to tempt those who are living at that time (see D&C 101:28). The

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In my opinion, there are going to have to be some significant external changes that set the stage for a critical mass of Church members who are willing to live the law of the Celestial kingdom, which is the law of Zion. One of the things Enoch's people did was to separate themselves out of the world, both physically and spiritually. We're too intertwined in our present societal situations for Zion to take root; there's not enough critical mass in the wards and stakes to cause it to become self-sustaining, in a sense.

I agree with this too, when the time comes the saints will have to separate themselves from the wicked, I don't think this will be a voluntary separation in most cases. If you look at the way the world is going, the time where Christians are chased from there homes and persecuted for there faith is not terribly distant time. It seems each day it becomes a little more illegal in this world to love the Lord and seek to live according to his commandments.

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But then finally, will there really be "local Zions" when Joseph brought forth revelation stating the exact place it will be? (Independence, Missouri)

It appears that he was referring to the current Stakes of the Church, also called the Stakes of Zion. The commenter said he didn't know the proper term and used local Zions instead.

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1) Are we responsible for bringing forth Zion or will God do this in his own due time regardless of our spiritual condition?

Yes, most certainly.

2) Should Zion be seen as

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In my opinion, there are going to have to be some significant external changes that set the stage for a critical mass of Church members who are willing to live the law of the Celestial kingdom, which is the law of Zion. One of the things Enoch's people did was to separate themselves out of the world, both physically and spiritually. We're too intertwined in our present societal situations for Zion to take root; there's not enough critical mass in the wards and stakes to cause it to become self-sustaining, in a sense.

I'm so glad you brought this up! Think about it, are we so intertwined in the worldly system that we have no paradigm of how to "get out"? Meaning, how many of our prayers deal with things in the world we "think we need" or how much focus do we put into prayers asking God to help us succeed in the worldly system?

I can understand why God speaks to us in Haggai that everything in heaven and earth will be shaken (Haggai 2). In essence, we need the rug pulled out from under us where all we have is God for our daily support.

We preach and teach about faith. Yet if faith is trust, how much faith do we show God when we focus so much time and attention in furthering our secular careers, defending beliefs like the world does, and pursuing all manner of endeavors that while "good" have very little kingdom building value?

Then too, I often wonder if Enoch was the key to Zion's success? Joseph Smith wrote in the Inspired Version that:

"And so great was the faith of Enoch, that he led the people of God, and their enemies came to battle against them, and he spake the word of the Lord, and the earth trembled, and the mountains fled, even according to his command. And the rivers of water were turned out of their courses, and the roar of the lions was heard out of the wilderness. And all nations feared greatly, so powerful was the word of Enoch, and so great was the power of the language which God had given him..." Genesis 7:15-17 Inspired Version

It goes even further by saying:

"And from that time forth, there were wars, and bloodshed among them; but the Lord came and dwelt with his people, and they dwelt in righteousness. And the fear of the Lord was upon all nations, so great was the glory of the Lord which was upon all his people. And the Lord blessed the land, and they were blessed upon the mountains, and upon the high places, and did flourish. And the Lord called his people, Zion, because they were of one heart and of one mind, and dwelt in righteousness; and there were no poor among them..." Genesis 7:20-23 Inspired Version

So here it talks of how indeed the people needed a great leader to show them the way. A mighty prophet who "spoke the language of God". What an example to shake up anyone's paradigm! Enoch spoke and the earth itself trembled, rivers turned from their course, and all their enemies feared them. The Lord sent Enoch to prepare the people to "receive him". We know this is true when the verse goes on the say how the Lord came and "dwelt with his people." They flourished in food and everything they needed. It was then that they began to build the "holy city" which the Lord called Zion.

So what comes first? The critical mass where every foundation is shaken? A leader who speaks the language of God and in a very clear way gets everyone undivided attention? Will these two things come at the same time and then will some still not be able to trust enough to follow?

I deeply respect our leaders and am thankful for the work they do. Yet I still have much higher expectations of what it means to be a prophet like Enoch. I also have higher expectations for myself to become like the people of his city who responded when they saw what was going on around them!

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Thank you for the verse, it does appear that the righteousness of the people have something to do with Satan having no power! Learned something new today! It makes sense though, from what I was told those born in the millennium are the souls which were so valiant for Christ that they have no need to be tested on Earth, all they needed was to come to Earth and get a body because they already proved they were worthy in pre mortal existence, such valiant people would never be deceived by the lies of Satan!

I thought of it for years as Christ binding Satan and found that very interesting too. We can't just sit around waiting for it to happen. We have to be a part of it.

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History has shown that while it is easy to say, it is extremely difficult to accomplish. Maybe this all ties back in to "degrees of faith" and that this very foundation has been lacking in ways we never imagined. Do we trust God to be tender with us even in our weakness? The amazing reality is that in our weakness, he will make us strong!

Ether 12:27 is one of my favorite scriptures. :P

One of the things I struggle with indeed, is pride itself... certain days it is easy to control, other days it's not... but it truly is very important, in the end, to learn to not compare yourself to others, but instead to worry about changing yourself to the way the Lord wants you. That is one of the many things I have learned from being shown my weaknesses. =)

Don't always do it perfectly, but I keep trying XD.

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I thought of it for years as Christ binding Satan and found that very interesting too. We can't just sit around waiting for it to happen. We have to be a part of it.

Yes, when you think about it, just as Christ asked us to help him create the world, we would also need to do our part to bind Satan so Christ could have his millennial reign.

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