Obiwan Posted February 17, 2011 Share Posted February 17, 2011 I'm almost never stumped these days, and the rare occasion I am usually having forgot the answer, it takes me only a moment to get the full facts in my head again. However, I'm having a momentary issue with Matthew 25 and some anti's.Most Christians believe in the simple Heaven/Hell idea. Matthew 25 seems to basically indicate something similar. However, as an LDS, I've always seen that this is a simplistic and wrong understanding of scripture, per other scriptures. My problem, is that in the context of Matt. 25 there exists verse "41". The reason I'm having momentary difficulty with this is that Matt. 25 seems to be occurring at the Final Judgment, however verse 41 has the goats (the wicked) being cast into hell with the devil and his angels. Problem with that is that LDS theology says that the devil and his angels are in Outer Darkness, and those who join them will only be the sons of perdition, not the general wicked as Matthew 25 seems to be referring to.Am I missing something here?My anti friends are using this to try and show that the LDS kingdoms of glory teaching must be false. While I don't believe that for a second, I can't figure out yet how to reason verse 41 out, since it seems at first look to pose a problem for the LDS Outer Darkness and the wicked etc. views. Understand, I believe there is plenty of support for the LDS view, but verse 41 is throwing me for a loop. So, is it an error, something else I'm missing, maybe the timeline I have wrong, what???Need some good thoughts on this. Thanks all.BTW, I'm sure I've answered this for myself previously, it's just I haven't seen this in forever and so I don't remember the answer. Link to comment
TAO Posted February 17, 2011 Share Posted February 17, 2011 I'm almost never stumped these days, and the rare occasion I am usually having forgot the answer, it takes me only a moment to get the full facts in my head again. However, I'm having a momentary issue with Matthew 25 and some anti's.Most Christians believe in the simple Heaven/Hell idea. Matthew 25 seems to basically indicate something similar. However, as an LDS, I've always seen that this is a simplistic and wrong understanding of scripture, per other scriptures. My problem, is that in the context of Matt. 25 there exists verse "41". The reason I'm having momentary difficulty with this is that Matt. 25 seems to be occurring at the Final Judgment, however verse 41 has the goats (the wicked) being cast into hell with the devil and his angels. Problem with that is that LDS theology says that the devil and his angels are in Outer Darkness, and those who join them will only be the sons of perdition, not the general wicked as Matthew 25 seems to be referring to.Am I missing something here?My anti friends are using this to try and show that the LDS kingdoms of glory teaching must be false. While I don't believe that for a second, I can't figure out yet how to reason verse 41 out, since it seems at first look to pose a problem for the LDS Outer Darkness and the wicked etc. views. Understand, I believe there is plenty of support for the LDS view, but verse 41 is throwing me for a loop. So, is it an error, something else I'm missing, maybe the timeline I have wrong, what???Need some good thoughts on this. Thanks all.BTW, I'm sure I've answered this for myself previously, it's just I haven't seen this in forever and so I don't remember the answer.Actually, that is in the LDS theology (1 Nephi 15:35).The pain of hell, though it has an end, is prepared by the devil... it is anguish of soul. Considering that the devil and his angel are already in outer darkness, they already have this capability... and the people in hell (who are not sons of perdition) will only be delivered in the last resurrection. But they will still be subject to the hell prepared by the devil, for that momentary bit in time.BTW, it doesn't talk about it being after the judgement... nor does it relate to the fact in LDS theology that even those that inherit the telestial will confess that Jesus is the Christ after their punishment (all knees will bow and tongues confess, etc). So this verse could also solely apply to the sons of perdition, depending on it's context whether before the judgment or after.Hope this helps =D. If you spend some time on LDS.org with the topical guide, and I think you will find some useful verses to show your position. I hope it goes decently.Best Wishes,TAO Link to comment
jadams_4242 Posted February 17, 2011 Share Posted February 17, 2011 I'm almost never stumped these days, and the rare occasion I am usually having forgot the answer, it takes me only a moment to get the full facts in my head again. However, I'm having a momentary issue with Matthew 25 and some anti's.Most Christians believe in the simple Heaven/Hell idea. Matthew 25 seems to basically indicate something similar. However, as an LDS, I've always seen that this is a simplistic and wrong understanding of scripture, per other scriptures. My problem, is that in the context of Matt. 25 there exists verse "41". The reason I'm having momentary difficulty with this is that Matt. 25 seems to be occurring at the Final Judgment, however verse 41 has the goats (the wicked) being cast into hell with the devil and his angels. Problem with that is that LDS theology says that the devil and his angels are in Outer Darkness, and those who join them will only be the sons of perdition, not the general wicked as Matthew 25 seems to be referring to.Am I missing something here?My anti friends are using this to try and show that the LDS kingdoms of glory teaching must be false. While I don't believe that for a second, I can't figure out yet how to reason verse 41 out, since it seems at first look to pose a problem for the LDS Outer Darkness and the wicked etc. views. Understand, I believe there is plenty of support for the LDS view, but verse 41 is throwing me for a loop. So, is it an error, something else I'm missing, maybe the timeline I have wrong, what???Need some good thoughts on this. Thanks all.BTW, I'm sure I've answered this for myself previously, it's just I haven't seen this in forever and so I don't remember the answer. matthew 25 is a "parable" not fact..... Link to comment
LDSGuy Posted February 17, 2011 Share Posted February 17, 2011 It is true that verse 41 is part of the parable that Jesus is giving, mainly about separation of the righteous and unrighteous. Matt. 25:41- "Then shall he say also unto them on the aleft hand, bDepart from me, ye ccursed, into everlasting dfire, eprepared for the devil and his angels:". It then goes on to explain why. Verse 46 however is a clearer defintion of what Christ is talking about. It says:" And these shall go away into aeverlasting bpunishment: but the crighteous into dlife eeternal." Everlasting punishment and Eternal life are better definitions that explain the true reality while verse 41 is related to the parable of the King. I think a further reading of the text can help with the context.I'm almost never stumped these days, and the rare occasion I am usually having forgot the answer, it takes me only a moment to get the full facts in my head again. However, I'm having a momentary issue with Matthew 25 and some anti's.Most Christians believe in the simple Heaven/Hell idea. Matthew 25 seems to basically indicate something similar. However, as an LDS, I've always seen that this is a simplistic and wrong understanding of scripture, per other scriptures. My problem, is that in the context of Matt. 25 there exists verse "41". The reason I'm having momentary difficulty with this is that Matt. 25 seems to be occurring at the Final Judgment, however verse 41 has the goats (the wicked) being cast into hell with the devil and his angels. Problem with that is that LDS theology says that the devil and his angels are in Outer Darkness, and those who join them will only be the sons of perdition, not the general wicked as Matthew 25 seems to be referring to.Am I missing something here?My anti friends are using this to try and show that the LDS kingdoms of glory teaching must be false. While I don't believe that for a second, I can't figure out yet how to reason verse 41 out, since it seems at first look to pose a problem for the LDS Outer Darkness and the wicked etc. views. Understand, I believe there is plenty of support for the LDS view, but verse 41 is throwing me for a loop. So, is it an error, something else I'm missing, maybe the timeline I have wrong, what???Need some good thoughts on this. Thanks all.BTW, I'm sure I've answered this for myself previously, it's just I haven't seen this in forever and so I don't remember the answer. Link to comment
Obiwan Posted February 18, 2011 Author Share Posted February 18, 2011 So is the Spirit Prison also actually "Outer Darkness" then, thus the Devil and his Angels are there in Spirit Prison as well until the Final Judgment comes? I had always thought the spirit prison was a separate place from Outer Darkness where the devil is? Or are we not understanding each other as to what I'm seeing as a problem?I'll reiterate... Matthew 25 seems to clearly be occurring "at" the Final Judgment period. It also separates the righteous and the wicked, and the wicked end up going to the same place the devil is per verse 41. This can't be right because per LDS theology at the final judgment period most of the wicked will be end up in the Telestial Kingdom, while only the sons of perdition will be the only ones who end up with the devil. But verse 41 instead says the wicked will be with the devil at the end.See the conflict? Link to comment
frankenstein Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 So is the Spirit Prison also actually "Outer Darkness" then, thus the Devil and his Angels are there in Spirit Prison as well until the Final Judgment comes? I had always thought the spirit prison was a separate place from Outer Darkness where the devil is? Or are we not understanding each other as to what I'm seeing as a problem?I'll reiterate... Matthew 25 seems to clearly be occurring "at" the Final Judgment period. It also separates the righteous and the wicked, and the wicked end up going to the same place the devil is per verse 41. This can't be right because per LDS theology at the final judgment period most of the wicked will be end up in the Telestial Kingdom, while only the sons of perdition will be the only ones who end up with the devil. But verse 41 instead says the wicked will be with the devil at the end.See the conflict?You are correct that Spirit Prison is a realm in the spirit world; it is not Outer Darkness. as for your quandary yes, I see it. but who are the wicked? if take the parable at face value the wicked are those who do not provide food, shelter or clothing ever to anyone. Link to comment
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 So is the Spirit Prison also actually "Outer Darkness" then, thus the Devil and his Angels are there in Spirit Prison as well until the Final Judgment comes? I had always thought the spirit prison was a separate place from Outer Darkness where the devil is? Or are we not understanding each other as to what I'm seeing as a problem?I'll reiterate... Matthew 25 seems to clearly be occurring "at" the Final Judgment period. It also separates the righteous and the wicked, and the wicked end up going to the same place the devil is per verse 41. This can't be right because per LDS theology at the final judgment period most of the wicked will be end up in the Telestial Kingdom, while only the sons of perdition will be the only ones who end up with the devil. But verse 41 instead says the wicked will be with the devil at the end.See the conflict?I think this parable is more about what one must do to be His sheep vs were we end up. Which is ironic considering many mainstream Christians don't believe that you need to do anything on our part (works) to be saved.On another not to be saved or to recieve salvation is to be with God the Father. So in a certain sense this fits with the LDS theology as anything less than the CK is not a full salvation or it is not "being saved". I see what you are saying but there really is no conflict. I guess if one were to ignore other scripture then one could get away with the simplistic notion that at the judgement there are only 2 escaltors. One that goes up to heaven and one that goed down to hell.One thing is for sure that those that do not do the will of God will not be with him. Link to comment
Palerider Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 I'm almost never stumped these days, and the rare occasion I am usually having forgot the answer, it takes me only a moment to get the full facts in my head again. However, I'm having a momentary issue with Matthew 25 and some anti's.Most Christians believe in the simple Heaven/Hell idea. Matthew 25 seems to basically indicate something similar. However, as an LDS, I've always seen that this is a simplistic and wrong understanding of scripture, per other scriptures. My problem, is that in the context of Matt. 25 there exists verse "41". The reason I'm having momentary difficulty with this is that Matt. 25 seems to be occurring at the Final Judgment, however verse 41 has the goats (the wicked) being cast into hell with the devil and his angels. Problem with that is that LDS theology says that the devil and his angels are in Outer Darkness, and those who join them will only be the sons of perdition, not the general wicked as Matthew 25 seems to be referring to.Am I missing something here?My anti friends are using this to try and show that the LDS kingdoms of glory teaching must be false. While I don't believe that for a second, I can't figure out yet how to reason verse 41 out, since it seems at first look to pose a problem for the LDS Outer Darkness and the wicked etc. views. Understand, I believe there is plenty of support for the LDS view, but verse 41 is throwing me for a loop. So, is it an error, something else I'm missing, maybe the timeline I have wrong, what???Need some good thoughts on this. Thanks all.BTW, I'm sure I've answered this for myself previously, it's just I haven't seen this in forever and so I don't remember the answer.Obiwan,I'm not sure if I completely understand your issue, but it hasn't been my understanding that LDS doctrine teaches that satan and his followers are CURRENTLY in outerdarkness. I thought it was taught that they were cast out to earth and continue to tempt us as we go through life.Their time of full judgement will come at the final judgement, along with those who are truly and unrepentantly wicked.For insight see Matt. 8: 2929And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before athe time?See also Rev. 20: 1010And the adevil that deceived them was bcast into the lake of cfire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.Regarding the 3 degrees of glory, I think most Christians would be persuaded ( by 1 Corinthians 19: 40) that although bodies can be resurrected with different glories, that doesn't neccessarily mean there will be different kingdoms. Might have a hard time from a biblical standpoint there. Link to comment
TAO Posted February 19, 2011 Share Posted February 19, 2011 So is the Spirit Prison also actually "Outer Darkness" then, thus the Devil and his Angels are there in Spirit Prison as well until the Final Judgment comes? I had always thought the spirit prison was a separate place from Outer Darkness where the devil is? Or are we not understanding each other as to what I'm seeing as a problem?I'll reiterate... Matthew 25 seems to clearly be occurring "at" the Final Judgment period. It also separates the righteous and the wicked, and the wicked end up going to the same place the devil is per verse 41. This can't be right because per LDS theology at the final judgment period most of the wicked will be end up in the Telestial Kingdom, while only the sons of perdition will be the only ones who end up with the devil. But verse 41 instead says the wicked will be with the devil at the end.See the conflict?I think you might still be able to be tempted in spirit prison (not sure though). This temptation (if it is such) seems to be a version of mocking. And yes, spirit prison isn't in outer darkness... but the grief there is caused by your own soul and the devil's mocking, I think. Link to comment
DispensatorMysteriorum Posted February 19, 2011 Share Posted February 19, 2011 So is the Spirit Prison also actually "Outer Darkness" then, thus the Devil and his Angels are there in Spirit Prison as well until the Final Judgment comes? I had always thought the spirit prison was a separate place from Outer Darkness where the devil is? Or are we not understanding each other as to what I'm seeing as a problem?You are correct that Spirit Prison is a realm in the spirit world; it is not Outer Darkness. As far as modern usage goes, we tend to use "outer darkness" to refer exclusively to post-judgement, post resurrection "hell." However, this isn't the way it is always used in the scriptures. For example, Alma 40:11Now, concerning the state of the soul between death and the resurrection Link to comment
Obiwan Posted February 19, 2011 Author Share Posted February 19, 2011 Hmmm.... Palerider seems closer to what I'm looking for, good point.This could also explain how both the wicked and satan/followers are being put together around the final judgment. This world is considered a "Telestial" world, and it is said Satan currently has dominion over it, is the God of this world. So, it's seems like there might be a corollary closeness between the Telestial Kingdom and Outer Darkness. After all, Christ won't be visiting that Kingdom, thus in this context verse 41 makes more sense in an LDS framework, because the Telestial Kingdom and Outer Darkness might be much closer than we realize.I'm not concerned with the "name" of Outer Darkness, but good point for those who might not realize that. I'm trying to figure out why during the final judgment the wicked are going to the same place the devil is per Matthew 25 & verse 41.But, good info everyone so far, thanks. Looking for some more thoughts on this so I can come up with a good answer. Link to comment
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