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The Detroit Manuscript


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#1 inquiringmind

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Posted 15 February 2011 - 10:56 AM

Has anyone heard of "The Detroit Manuscript"?

I could post some links here, but the only ones I've seen are anti-Mormon.

I'm looking for a good Mormon apologetic response to the allegation that the characters on the Anthon transcript were copied from the Detroit Manuscript. (they're said to be 60% identical, and it's claimed that there was some connection between the discoverer, and Joseph Smith's family.)

Can anyone help?
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#2 Doug the Hutt

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Posted 15 February 2011 - 01:00 PM

I think post some links, copy & paste some data. Let the evidence speak for itself.
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#3 calmoriah

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Posted 15 February 2011 - 03:19 PM

Has anyone heard of "The Detroit Manuscript"?

I could post some links here, but the only ones I've seen are anti-Mormon.

I'm looking for a good Mormon apologetic response to the allegation that the characters on the Anthon transcript were copied from the Detroit Manuscript. (they're said to be 60% identical, and it's claimed that there was some connection between the discoverer, and Joseph Smith's family.)

Can anyone help?

If they are specific to the issue and the site does not contain temple content, it should be okay.
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#4 rick7475

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Posted 15 February 2011 - 03:44 PM

Has anyone heard of "The Detroit Manuscript"?

I could post some links here, but the only ones I've seen are anti-Mormon.

I'm looking for a good Mormon apologetic response to the allegation that the characters on the Anthon transcript were copied from the Detroit Manuscript. (they're said to be 60% identical, and it's claimed that there was some connection between the discoverer, and Joseph Smith's family.)

Can anyone help?



Since the Anthon Transcript letters were found to be 96% identical to two Meso-American artifacts with Ancient American writing, I don't think 60% cuts it.
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#5 Mike Reed

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Posted 15 February 2011 - 04:09 PM

Since the Anthon Transcript letters were found to be 96% identical to two Meso-American artifacts with Ancient American writing, I don't think 60% cuts it.

Source please.
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#6 inquiringmind

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Posted 15 February 2011 - 04:11 PM

Since the Anthon Transcript letters were found to be 96% identical to two Meso-American artifacts with Ancient American writing, I don't think 60% cuts it.

That's the kind of info I was hoping for.

Please give me more.

Are there any links you could post here?
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#7 rick7475

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Posted 15 February 2011 - 04:41 PM

That's the kind of info I was hoping for.

Please give me more.

Are there any links you could post here?


The Anthon Transcript' and Two Mesoamerican Cylinder Seals, Newsletter and Proceedings of the Society for Early Historical Archaeology 122 (Sept. 1970)

Enjoy google :P
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#8 inquiringmind

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Posted 15 February 2011 - 04:46 PM

The Anthon Transcript' and Two Mesoamerican Cylinder Seals, Newsletter and Proceedings of the Society for Early Historical Archaeology 122 (Sept. 1970)

Enjoy google :P

Is this available online?
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#9 inquiringmind

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Posted 15 February 2011 - 04:52 PM

Found it.

http://maxwellinstit...=8&num=1&id=188

Thank you.
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#10 Zakuska

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Posted 15 February 2011 - 04:56 PM

Here is a start:
http://www.google.co......earchBox&ie==

Especillay these two:
http://maxwellinstit...=6&num=3&id=757

CHARACTERS ON TWO ANCIENT AMERICAN CYLINDER STAMPS AND ON THE ANTHON TRANSCRIPT COMPARE FAVORABLY

One of the few systematic studies of the "caractors" of the "Anthon Transcript," as it was known a decade ago, was published by Carl Hugh Jones in 1970 as "The 'Anthon Transcript' and Two Mesoamerican Cylinder Seals." His paper appeared in the Newsletter of the Society for Early Historical Archaeology and is now available as a F.A.R.M.S. Reprint. The author is a museum professional with the Nebraska State Historical Society.

This paper tabulates the recurring marks on the Anthon Transcript according to a numbering system keyed to numbered lines and characters. For example, one learns immediately that the mark that looks something like a large numeral "two" occurs six times on four different lines. Repeated occurrences of series of marks are also tabulated. Serious decipherment attempts will benefit from this systematic labeling and counting.

In addition, the author shows that many similar marks or signs are found on a roller stamp discovered at La Venta, Tabasco, Mexico, and another found at Tlatilco, Mexico. Both stamps date to before the time of Christ and had already been published in the professional literature. Ten signs on the first roller and 28 on the second are compared with the Anthon document. Although the general style of these sets of markings varies, the conclusion reached by Jones is that individual equivalents to all the La Venta signs are visible in the Transcript and that the Tlatilco stamp can even be said to be "an archaeological example of the type of script represented in the Anthon Transcript."


http://www.cometozar...edegyptian.html

Edited by Zakuska, 15 February 2011 - 04:59 PM.

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#11 inquiringmind

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Posted 15 February 2011 - 05:46 PM

CHARACTERS ON TWO ANCIENT AMERICAN CYLINDER STAMPS AND ON THE ANTHON TRANSCRIPT COMPARE FAVORABLY

One of the few systematic studies of the "caractors" of the "Anthon Transcript," as it was known a decade ago, was published by Carl Hugh Jones in 1970 as "The 'Anthon Transcript' and Two Mesoamerican Cylinder Seals." His paper appeared in the Newsletter of the Society for Early Historical Archaeology and is now available as a F.A.R.M.S. Reprint. The author is a museum professional with the Nebraska State Historical Society.

This paper tabulates the recurring marks on the Anthon Transcript according to a numbering system keyed to numbered lines and characters. For example, one learns immediately that the mark that looks something like a large numeral "two" occurs six times on four different lines. Repeated occurrences of series of marks are also tabulated. Serious decipherment attempts will benefit from this systematic labeling and counting.

In addition, the author shows that many similar marks or signs are found on a roller stamp discovered at La Venta, Tabasco, Mexico, and another found at Tlatilco, Mexico. Both stamps date to before the time of Christ and had already been published in the professional literature. Ten signs on the first roller and 28 on the second are compared with the Anthon document. Although the general style of these sets of markings varies, the conclusion reached by Jones is that individual equivalents to all the La Venta signs are visible in the Transcript and that the Tlatilco stamp can even be said to be "an archaeological example of the type of script represented in the Anthon Transcript."

If this annalysis is correct, wouldn't it be extreemly unlikely that the caractors on the Anthon Transcript were simply made up or copied from the Detroit Manuscript?

In fact, wouldn't it be almost a statistical impossibility (or is that going too far)?
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#12 beth

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Posted 17 February 2011 - 11:01 AM

If the Anthon manuscript characters match up to some extent with real known characters from some other language(s) as FARMS suggests, then why can't someone do some sort of translation of the Anthon document? I realize it wouldn't be perfect, but they should be able to come up with something?

And if the translation had phrases and such from the BofM, then that would seem to be evidence in its favor, right?
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#13 Kevin Christensen

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Posted 17 February 2011 - 11:38 AM

If the Anthon manuscript characters match up to some extent with real known characters from some other language(s) as FARMS suggests, then why can't someone do some sort of translation of the Anthon document? I realize it wouldn't be perfect, but they should be able to come up with something?

And if the translation had phrases and such from the BofM, then that would seem to be evidence in its favor, right?

The problem is in having known characters for the comparison. The two cylinder seals are from an unknown script. They make a case that the script fits and ancient Mesoamerican context, but provide not clues for actually reading.

Wade Brown published an interesting book eight or nine years ago (The First Page of the Book of Mormon) in which he observes two chiastic patterns in the Anthon transcript. The first is complete, the second is partial, indicating that the one who copied the characters on the Anthon transcript stopped before completing the second chiastic pattern. Brown tried the match up the pattern with chiastic passages in the current Book of Mormon, but concluded that the Anthon characters are from the lost pages. Hence, we have no direct template for translation. He does suggest a few things, like the use of dash as "and it came to pass" and noticed some other patterns that fit with Mormon's language use, but he could not narrow down the options.

The patterns do suggest that the characters are not random, but that there is a message there.

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#14 Rob Bowman

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Posted 17 February 2011 - 07:54 PM

It took some doing, but I was able to find a PDF of the issue of the SEHA newsletter that included the article by Jones (merely Googling the title didn't work). Here is the link:

http://www.shields-r...etter_122-2.PDF
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#15 Tango

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Posted 17 February 2011 - 09:04 PM

Since the Anthon Transcript letters were found to be 96% identical to two Meso-American artifacts with Ancient American writing, I don't think 60% cuts it.


As if....CRF pal--
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#16 TAO

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Posted 17 February 2011 - 09:21 PM

As if....CRF pal--


It was already posted in this thread. It's in the past few links.
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#17 rick7475

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Posted 18 February 2011 - 04:24 PM

As if....CRF pal--


LOL
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#18 Mola Ram Suda Ram

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Posted 18 February 2011 - 04:26 PM

As if....CRF pal--

You are a riot Tango. Why don't you deal with the evidence presented? CFR already answered. Since this thread is so short I am willing to bet you can find the posts that contain the reference.

Edited by Mola Ram Suda Ram, 18 February 2011 - 04:27 PM.

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#19 Tango

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Posted 19 February 2011 - 09:27 PM

It took some doing, but I was able to find a PDF of the issue of the SEHA newsletter that included the article by Jones (merely Googling the title didn't work). Here is the link:

http://www.shields-r...etter_122-2.PDF


Nice try pal, but this has already been proven a forgery. Wow..talk about a gulable bunch of mormons..
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#20 calmoriah

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Posted 19 February 2011 - 09:30 PM

Nice try pal, but this has already been proven a forgery. Wow..talk about a gulable bunch of mormons..


Rob Bowman, a "gulable" mormon. Sweet!
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