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phaedrus ut

Living among polygamists

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A very active but somewhat feminist leaning friend of mine commented that unlike another of our mutual friends she could never live in close proximity to polygamist families. When I asked if she would be comfortable living among polygamists in the celestial kingdom she paused and told me that if any of her immediately family wanted to practice polygamy she would choose to drop to a lower kingdom.

Does anyone else feel the same?

Phaedrus

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A very active but somewhat feminist leaning friend of mine commented that unlike another of our mutual friends she could never live in close proximity to polygamist families. When I asked if she would be comfortable living among polygamists in the celestial kingdom she paused and told me that if any of her immediately family wanted to practice polygamy she would choose to drop to a lower kingdom.

Does anyone else feel the same?

Phaedrus

Having lived amoung and associated with polygamists, I would gladly live amoung them again, even if I don't agree with the teaching.

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A very active but somewhat feminist leaning friend of mine commented that unlike another of our mutual friends she could never live in close proximity to polygamist families. When I asked if she would be comfortable living among polygamists in the celestial kingdom she paused and told me that if any of her immediately family wanted to practice polygamy she would choose to drop to a lower kingdom.

Does anyone else feel the same?

Phaedrus

I think that there is some underlying contempt here, for one to have so much distaste and pride to say they would rather leave the presence of God for eternity instead of be around a polygamist is crazy.

Does she know that Joseph Smith had at least 24 wives, Brigham Young had 50 wives (and 54 children)?

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I think that there is some underlying contempt here, for one to have so much distaste and pride to say they would rather leave the presence of God for eternity instead of be around a polygamist is crazy.

Does she know that Joseph Smith had at least 24 wives, Brigham Young had 50 wives (and 54 children)?

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A very active but somewhat feminist leaning friend of mine commented that unlike another of our mutual friends she could never live in close proximity to polygamist families. When I asked if she would be comfortable living among polygamists in the celestial kingdom she paused and told me that if any of her immediately family wanted to practice polygamy she would choose to drop to a lower kingdom.

Does anyone else feel the same?

"If they let those kind of people in here then I'm going somewhere else!" doesn't sound like a very Celestial atttitude to me.

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I think that there is some underlying contempt here, for one to have so much distaste and pride to say they would rather leave the presence of God for eternity instead of be around a polygamist is crazy.

Does she know that Joseph Smith had at least 24 wives, Brigham Young had 50 wives (and 54 children)?

It's a interesting paradox to say the least. She is a believer and multi-generational Mormon with polygamists in her family tree. Distant polygamy doesn't bother her as much as imagining her husband wanting another wife or her father taking a sister wife along with her mother.

Phaedrus

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Speaking for Evangelicals everywhere:

Polygamists (Like Abraham, Isaac and Jacob) I can handle. Just not those Mormon polygamists.

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I have heard many LDS women (active LDS) admit to similar feelings. Not usually to the point of rejecting the Celestial Kingdom, but it is definitely a concern for some of them.

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It's a interesting paradox to say the least. She is a believer and multi-generational Mormon with polygamists in her family tree. Distant polygamy doesn't bother her as much as imagining her husband wanting another wife or her father taking a sister wife along with her mother.

Phaedrus

I can somewhat understand that, my wife doesn't have a problem with JS and BY having multiple wives, but loses her mind when someone we know asks here which number wife is she. She hates the idea of having to share a husband with another woman, but is OK with other people doing this if they so choose.

It seems here though that this person you mention has a really, really, really big issue with polygamy all together, to forsake Eternal life just because polygamists will be in the Celestial Kingdom seems very odd.

I don't care if Aldof Hitler, and Joseph Stalin are there, if I am worthy enough to inherit Eternal Life I ain't giving it up for anyone!

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I can somewhat understand that, my wife doesn't have a problem with JS and BY having multiple wives, but loses her mind when someone we know asks here which number wife is she. She hates the idea of having to share a husband with another woman, but is OK with other people doing this if they so choose.

If everything were equal between the sexes in the Celestial Kingdom and men and women were given the same choices would you let your wife bring a second husband into your marriage?

Phaedrus

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D&C 132:

37Abraham received concubines, and they bore him children; and it was accounted unto him for righteousness, because they were given unto him, and he abode in my law; as Isaac also and bJacob did none other things than that which they were commanded; and because they did none other things than that which they were commanded, they have entered into their exaltation, according to the promises, and sit upon thrones, and are not angels but are gods.

It appears to me, that if we make it to the celestial kingdom we WILL be in the "company of polygamists".

Better get used to the idea!

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If everything were equal between the sexes in the Celestial Kingdom and men and women were given the same choices would you let your wife bring a second husband into your marriage?

Phaedrus

This question is invalid since we know there is no marriage after the second resurrection and Judgment, as Christ states in Matthew 22:30.

Since there is no marriage in the Celestial Kingdom my wife cannot be married to anyone there.

Now to answer the spirit of your question, you want to know if the Church still practiced plural marriage and if plural marriage allowed Polyandry as well as polygamy, would I consent to my wife taking a second husband?

I think I would, if the First Presidency approved the sealing (as per the law of plural marriage found in D&C 132:58-66) I would give my consent (another requirement per D&C 132:58-66) if the Prophet approves then in my opinion it is the will of God and I will always do my best to follow the will of God.

I know it would be awkward at first and I am sure that it would be like any other marriage, it will have it's high points and low points.

I love my wife but if that love makes me jealous of the will of the Lord for our marriage then I am sinning. My wife is my companion, my soon to be eternal partner, she is not a possession though and in my opinion one can only be jealous about a possession or something they want to possess.

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If everything were equal between the sexes in the Celestial Kingdom and men and women were given the same choices would you let your wife bring a second husband into your marriage?

Phaedrus

I think you have a skewed idea of what "equal" means, since in the Celestial Kingdom men and women are equal, despite their differences.

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A very active but somewhat feminist leaning friend of mine commented that unlike another of our mutual friends she could never live in close proximity to polygamist families. When I asked if she would be comfortable living among polygamists in the celestial kingdom she paused and told me that if any of her immediately family wanted to practice polygamy she would choose to drop to a lower kingdom.

Does anyone else feel the same?

Perhaps watching "Paint your wagon" put her off the idea...

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I think you have a skewed idea of what "equal" means, since in the Celestial Kingdom men and women are equal, despite their differences.

It is also important to know that the Church believes Husband and Wife are equal partners in marriage. They have different (but equally important) roles in the rearing of children but you need both parents doing the best they can to properly raise a family. A Priesthood holder is suppose to preside over his family in patience, love, and long suffering, with the aid and council of his wife.

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I think you have a skewed idea of what "equal" means, since in the Celestial Kingdom men and women are equal, despite their differences.

The phrasing was meant that the sexes were given equal choices. Men could bring additional wives into the marriage and women could bring in additional husbands into the marriage. It's obviously just speculation but it might be interesting to consider how your opinion might change if the shoe was on the other foot.

For example, if I were to imagine living in a polygamist marriage could I do it with more than one wife? Probably. Could I do it with multiple husbands? Never in a million years.

Phaedrus

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A very active but somewhat feminist leaning friend of mine commented that unlike another of our mutual friends she could never live in close proximity to polygamist families.

Does she explain why?

I cannot imagine a situation where I would be so obsessive about what others were doing in their lives when they were loving, righteous, happy and pure people (which are those who are going to be living in the CK) that I refused to associate with them.

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The phrasing was meant that the sexes were given equal choices. Men could bring additional wives into the marriage and women could bring in additional husbands into the marriage. It's obviously just speculation but it might be interesting to consider how your opinion might change if the shoe was on the other foot.

For example, if I were to imagine living in a polygamist marriage could I do it with more than one wife? Probably. Could I do it with multiple husbands? Never in a million years.

Phaedrus

You might as well imagine a world where the men carry the babies for nine months instead of the women while you're at it.

The shoe can't be on the other foot.

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Does she explain why?

I cannot imagine a situation where I would be so obsessive about what others were doing in their lives when they were loving, righteous, happy and pure people (which are those who are going to be living in the CK) that I refused to associate with them.

For her it's a issue of women's rights. In her eyes it denies a wife the right to equality in the family by having to share her husband romantically and sexually with multiple women. To quote her specifically she said "can you imagine sharing your husband with 30 other women? That's not a relationship but just a notch above slavery". And in her eyes having to live like that with husband or her father practicing polygamy isn't worth it.

Phaedrus

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Personally (my personal opinion), I don't think anyone is going to have to worry about it. I think the afterlife is going to be quite different than most of us can even imagine.

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And in her eyes having to live like that with husband or her father practicing polygamy isn't worth it.

I always love it when those who claim to be feminists (something close to that position) want to dictate to other women what their choices should be. Heaven forbid that a woman live in a polygamous marriage even if that was the desire of her heart and it gave her great joy and happiness (based on the fact that the polygamous marriage is occurring in the Celestial Kingdom and thus by definition must be these things for the woman involved).:P

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You might as well imagine a world where the men carry the babies for nine months instead of the women while you're at it.

The shoe can't be on the other foot.

One is a biological impossibility the other is merely improbably within the confines of the patriarchy of Mormonism. Even Joseph's marriages to married women were driven by Joseph's selection of the wives rather than their choice of a new husband.

Like is said it's speculation, but imagining the transaction from the other direction helps me empathize with people who find it distasteful.

Phaedrus

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For her it's a issue of women's rights. In her eyes it denies a wife the right to equality in the family by having to share her husband romantically and sexually with multiple women. To quote her specifically she said "can you imagine sharing your husband with 30 other women? That's not a relationship but just a notch above slavery". And in her eyes having to live like that with husband or her father practicing polygamy isn't worth it.

Phaedrus

See this is what I was mentioning earlier, she has to have some other gripe besides polygamy to be so fierce that she would refuse eternal life if that means spending eternity around polygamy (which it very well will). I disagree with her, polygamy is not a woman's rights issue, the only way to enter into a polygamous marriage is through the consent of your current spouse (or spouses). No woman is forced to "share" a husband, she can simple not consent to the arrangement and there will be no second marriage.

It seems here that she has contempt for a women who is willing to consent to her husband taking a second wife, it seems like her disgust is more focused on a woman choosing to allow her husband to wed and have sex with another woman. IMO she tries to cover this disgust by saying it violates woman's rights when this does not do so in any way. The real issue here is she refuses to accept that a woman has the right to allow her husband to take another wife if that woman wants to.

It is imo a classic case of trying to press your values upon another person, if she wouldn't consent no women should consent.

I can understand why she feels so strongly now that you have gone more in depth, it isn't a womans rights issue. It is the mindset that if I disagree with something no one should dare consent to it.

I can totally see someone throwing away eternal life for this, it is a sin of pride of knowledge. She feels that only her opinion is correct and anything that is contrary is absolutely disgusting.

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One is a biological impossibility the other is merely improbably within the confines of the patriarchy of Mormonism. Even Joseph's marriages to married women were driven by Joseph's selection of the wives rather than their choice of a new husband.

Like is said it's speculation, but imagining the transaction from the other direction helps me empathize with people who find it distasteful.

Phaedrus

I don't think the problem is the confines of the patriarchy, it is the confines of doctrine. The purpose of marriage is to create children to give spirits bodies to reside in. So the idea of one wife with several husbands is against this model since the woman can only be pregnant with one mans child at at time meaning all other husbands are ready to create children but unable because there wife is pregnant. This set up reduces potential births from monogamy.

If one man has several wives though there is no conflict here, he can keep all the women pregnant and produce many more children. This system produces far more potential births than monogamy, especially when there is a significantly higher number of women than men.

This is why God only allows monogamy and at time when he commands so polygamy, and not polyandry.

Polygamy was also important in early LDS history because of the fact that many men were killed while they were being chased from Missouri and Illinois. When Section 131 of the Doctrine and Covenants was revealed by God, marriage was now a requirement to obtain exaltation. So with so many more women than men, lots of women would be doomed to never receive the highest glory without polygamy.

Eternal Marriage being revealed as the requirement to receive the highest degree of celestial glory had a huge impact on polygamy.

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No polyandry, eh? According to LDS historians Joseph was married to women who were siamotainously married to other men. But I am sure there is yet another "logical explanation" for that. rolleyes.gif

The real explanation is in my sig.

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