14 replies to this topic

[miked]

just a question, since i'm not completely familiar with this.

when did the church start performing proxy ordinances for the deceased (rather than for the person receiving the ordinance)?  were these ordinances originally performed in the temple, or in some instances outside of the temple?

also, how established were the guidelines or rules for temple worship at the time of joseph smith's death?  were they pretty much as they are today, or did they evolve more under brigham young?

any recommendations on books or articles that deal with this topic?

[Nighthawke]

miked, on Oct 11 2004, 06:44 PM, said:

when did the church start performing proxy ordinances for the deceased (rather than for the person receiving the ordinance)?  were these ordinances originally performed in the temple, or in some instances outside of the temple?

also, how established were the guidelines or rules for temple worship at the time of joseph smith's death? were they pretty much as they are today, or did they evolve more under brigham young?

Outside the Temple, this is why they had to be redone later. Sorry, I can't remember the reference.

I have my own "pet" theory on Temple work and how the whole revelatory/prophet process works. Reading about early proxy work is what made it "click". Gotta go...

[miked]

thanks for the few replies.  if anyone else has any more insight or information on this topic i would appreciate it.

[Freedom]

I don't believe they were performed until the Navoo temple was build. There was an endowment house built for much of the work. I am curious now about the history. As reluctant as i am to agree with Just Curious, I think I must. Many Catholics, in effect, perform proxy work for the dead through prayers and proxy work was carried by the maccibees on behalf of dead soldiers who defiled themselves according to the law of Moses.

[tubaloth]

This is what PRESIDENT WILFORD WOODRUFF said:
Discourses Delivered at the General Conference of the Church, the Tabernacle, Salt Lake City, Utah, Sunday, April 18, 1894.

�?¢â?¬�??Perhaps it may be said by the inquiring or the objecting mind, What have you to say about redeeming the dead, or about baptism for the dead, or the work of the Temples of our God, that is not already revealed? I will say this: When the Prophet Joseph had this revelation from heaven, what did he do? There are witnesses here of what he did. He never stopped till he got the fulness of the word of God to him concerning the baptism for the dead. But before doing so he went into the Mississippi river, and so did I, as well as others, and we each baptized a hundred for the dead, without a man to record a single act that we performed. Why did we do it? Because of the feeling of joy we had, to think that we in the flesh could stand and redeem our dead. We did not wait to know what the result of this would be, or what the whole of it should be. Finally the Lord told the Prophet: "When any of you are baptized for your dead, let there be a recorder, and let him be eye witness of your baptisms; let him hear with his ears, that he may testify of a truth, saith the Lord; that in all your recordings it may be recorded in heaven; whatsoever you bind on earth may be bound in heaven; whatsoever you loose on earth, may be loosed in heaven." That was the beginning of this work.�?¢â?¬�?
(James R. Clark, comp., Messages of the First Presidency of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 6 vols. (Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1965-75), 3: 253.)

This is by John Taylor.

JOSEPH SMITH AND THE NAUVOO TEMPLE.�?¢â?¬â?Joseph Smith before his death, was much exercised about the completion of the temple in Nauvoo, and the administering of ordinances therein. In his anxiety and for fear he should not live to see the temple completed, he prepared a place over what was known as the brickstore�?¢â?¬â?which many of you who lived in Nauvoo will recollect�?¢â?¬â?where to a chosen few he administered those ordinances that we now have today associated with endowments, so that if anything should happen to him�?¢â?¬â?which he evidently contemplated�?¢â?¬â?he would feel that he had then fulfilled his mission, that he had conferred upon others all the keys given to him by the manifestations of the power of God.

At first these things were only partially made known to him, and as they were partially developed he called upon the twelve that were then living�?¢â?¬â?many of you gray-headed people will remember it�?¢â?¬â?to commence and be baptized for the dead, and they were baptized in the Mississippi River. Immediately after these baptisms, the prophet had a revelation which more clearly developed the order in relation to such baptisms. According to that revelation it appeared that, notwithstanding all the visions, revelations, keys, etc., that had heretofore been given, there was not a place, not even in the Kirtland Temple, wherein those things could be carried out, and hence a font, such as we have in this temple, was built in the temple at Nauvoo, and it was there, under proper circumstances and proper administration, and according to the principles that he had laid down, that those ordinances were administered then, and are administered now.�?¢â?¬â?JD, 25:182-183, May 18, 1884.
(John Taylor, The Gospel Kingdom: Selections from the Writings and Discourses of John Taylor, selected, arranged, and edited, with an introduction by G. Homer Durham [Salt Lake City: Improvement Era, 1941], 287.)

Let me see how well I can answer your questions.

�?¢â?¬�??when did the church start performing proxy ordinances for the deceased �?¢â?¬�??

I think this started to happen about the same time. Joseph Smith revealed the stuff about Temple work, and as people started to perform this work, they did it for their dead also. (About the years 1840-42)

�?¢â?¬�??were these ordinances originally performed in the temple, or in some instances outside of the temple?�?¢â?¬�?

I think the quotes above probably help with this.  Baptism for the dead was preformed outside the temple (at first)  kind of in a hurry.  I do agree with what others said how latter this work was redone. The first Temple Endowments were preformed in the upper part of the Red Brick Store that Joseph Smith owned.  I think this was just to show the leaders of the church how it was to be done.  From what I know they didn�?¢â?¬â?¢t keep doing this, they waited for the temple to be completed.

�?¢â?¬�??how established were the guidelines or rules for temple worship at the time of joseph smith's death?�?¢â?¬�?

I think they were pretty good.  There are a number of revelations on Baptism for the Dead and how each added a little bit of what needed to happen to make it official.  But as far as I know it was all revealed by the time Joseph Smith was murdered.  I do think Brigham Young fine-tuned it.  

�?¢â?¬�??were they pretty much as they are today, or did they evolve more under brigham young?�?¢â?¬�?

I think the Temple endowment has �?¢â?¬�??evolved�?¢â?¬�? just over time.  I think it has done this with added insight, technology and so forth.  How much under each president I don�?¢â?¬â?¢t know.


Hope that helps

[Daniel Peterson]

Just Curious, on Oct 11 2004, 03:50 PM, said:

Also there were religious sects practicing baptism for the dead in Northern Pennsylvania (close to New York) over 100 years before Josephs birth so baptism for the dead was well known in the area of New York and Pennsylvania (where Josephs wife was from)

I wonder if you're referring to the Ephrata Commune, in Ephrata, Pennsylvania?  John Brooke claims that they practiced baptism for the dead.  His claim may be true, but I'm not entirely confident and I know of no evidence for it.  During a summer I spent back at Princeton, in 1994, Bill Hamblin came to visit me.  One day, we headed off to Ephrata for a tour of the site of the former community there.  While on the site, we asked the people in charge of it whether they knew of any practice of baptism for the dead among the Ephrata community.  All we received were blank looks and negative replies.  They'd never heard of it.

Incidentally, for our evaluation of John Brooke's The Refiner's Fire: The Making of Mormon Cosmology, 1644-1844, see William J. Hamblin, Daniel C. Peterson, and George L. Mitton, "Mormon in the Fiery Furnace, Or, Loftes Tryk Goes to Cambridge."  It is available on line at

http://farms.byu.edu...lume=6&number=2

[Helorum]

Quote

When did the Church start performing proxy ordinances for the deceased? . . . . Any recommendations on books or articles that deal with this topic?

The links below will take you to the following PDF format articles:


Alexander L. Baugh, �?¢â?¬�??�?¢â?¬�??For This Ordinance Belongeth to My House�?¢â?¬â?¢: The Practice of Baptism for the Dead Outside the Nauvoo Temple,�?¢â?¬�? Mormon Historical Studies, vol. 3, no. 1, Spring 2002, 47�?¢â?¬â??58.


http://www.mormonhis...ng2002Baugh.pdf



Alexander L. Baugh, �?¢â?¬�??�?¢â?¬�??Blessed Is the First Man Baptized in This Font�?¢â?¬â?¢: Reuben McBride, First Proxy to Be Baptized for the Dead in the Mormon Temple,�?¢â?¬�? Mormon Historical Studies, vol. 3, no. 2, Fall 2002, 253�?¢â?¬â??61.


http://www.mormonhis...roxyBaptism.pdf



See also the following articles on the LDS Church�?¢â?¬â?¢s website (www.lds.org)


Susan Easton Black, �?¢â?¬�??A Voice of Gladness�?¢â?¬�? [Baptism for the Dead], Ensign, February 2004, 35�?¢â?¬â??   .

Richard O. Cowan, �?¢â?¬�??The Unfolding Restoration of Temple Work,�?¢â?¬�? Ensign, December 2001, 34�?¢â?¬â??   .



Note also the following information:



          �?¢â?¬�??One of Brigham Young�?¢â?¬â?¢s first acts after arriving in the Salt Lake Valley was to designate a spot for building another temple, and work commenced in 1853. Although the Salt Lake Temple was not dedicated until 1893, three other temples were completed in Utah prior to that date so the sacred temple ordinances could again be enjoyed by the Saints. In the meantime, some proxy baptisms and sealings, along with endowments of the living, were administered in places approved temporarily, including the Endowment House (1855-89) erected on Temple Square in Salt Lake City.

          Proxy endowments, however, were delayed until the completion of the temple in St. George. Even though that temple was not officially dedicated until April 1877, baptisms in behalf of the dead were performed after a preliminary dedication on 9 January. The first to be baptized was Susa Young Gates, a daughter of Brigham Young. Two days later, the first endowments in behalf of the dead were administered. That day Brigham Young, so afflicted with rheumatism that he had to be carried from place to place, stood proxy for his father�?¢â?¬�? (Brigham Young University Studies, vol. 34, no. 2, 1994, prologue).

Edited by Helorum, 12 October 2004 - 02:15 PM.

[miked]

thanks tubaloth and Helorum, those were very informative posts.  i will try to read the articles you linked to when i have a spare moment.

[Daniel Peterson]

Almost exactly ten years ago, I did a little bit of checking with regard to the Ephrata Commune, and never saw anything about any practice, by them, of baptism for the dead.  If they did baptize for the dead, their practice of the rite doesn't seem to be well known, and, so, I'm not sure that there's any reason to believe that it was ever well known (if, indeed, it ever even happened).

In order to believe that the isolated and largely German-speaking Ephrata Commune (also, significantly, known as the "Ephrata Cloister") of Pennsylvania influenced Joseph Smith in this regard, one has to assume (1) that it practiced baptism for the dead in the first place, (2) that Joseph Smith was aware of this practice despite the fact that Ephrata is well over a hundred miles from Harmony, Pennsylvania, his nearest place of residence, in a day of poor roads and communication, and despite the fact that the Commune had clearly passed its prime by the American Revolution, was essentially defunct by the year of Joseph's birth [1805], and lost its last surviving full [celibate] member in 1813, (3) that the practice struck him positively, and (4) that he nonetheless remained silent on the subject until roughly 1840 in Illinois, a decade after his last days in Harmony.

Each of those propositions seems to me unlikely.  And why invoke Ephrata anyway, when the practice of baptism for the dead is explicitly mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15:29 -- a text with which we know Joseph Smith was familiar?