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bammer

Grant Palmer Supporters Unite!

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I notice not one of you finger pointers (at Palmer) can discredit his research. I notice you are simply in disagreement with his making the information public not with the information he provides. Herein lies the good old boy mentality of online and live Church defenders. "Just because it's true and historical doesn't mean anyone should reveal it - especially one of our own CES instructors . . . and especially after he retires!" They cry.

Let's just say (for arguements sake) that Palmer took what you all think was the chicken way out because he didn't drop his bomb until he was retired. So what?

Jonah didn't go straight to Ninevah and Peter denied the Lord thrice. The point is, Palmer did the right thing in the end, and backslapping good old boy defenders of politically-operated machines always take umbrage to such action.

Bully for you, Grant Palmer! You are a modern day hero amidst a gathering of weak-kneed frauds! Or, as Arnold would say, "girlie-men." If only ALL Latter-day Saints would rise up and reveal what they know.

IJA,

BAMMER

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Now you have thrown down the gauntlet Bammer!

You are right. The responses here have just castigated Bro. Palmer for writing the book at all.

Now we get to the real problem. Is what he wrote true, or is it just a rehashing of every bit of anti-Mormon silliness that has been repeated over the years.

Mostly, it is (just a rehashing, that is).

However, in one section, he comes out with the truly novel concept that JS got his ideas for the Golden Plates and the angel from (wait for it): The Golden Pot.

Say what? <_< This is a strange little German fantasy tale that even the most jaundiced anti-Mormon observer would find extremely difficult to get anything Mormonesque out of it.

And this is Palmer's brilliant new discovery? :P

No. It does not take much to dismiss his wonderful opus. And no, he is not a hero operating against all us 'girlie men'.

Beowulf

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BEOWULF-

I happened to like the comparison to the Golden Pot and actually was amazed at the similarities between it and the historicity of the coming forth of the BOM. I admit, I haven't read the Golden Pot myself, and did find a stretch or two, but Palmer readily admits it as a theory and presents it as such and I do trust Grant with presenting quotations and extracts truthfully. Additionally, I don't think his info on the first vision was old anit rehashed. I think his book was fresh, fair, and a perfect springboard for "the brethren" to distance themselves with Joseph and the BOM and embrace classic Christian theology.

IJA,

BAMMER

(p.s. I certainly hope other readers take my Bammish verbiage as easily as yourself. Admittedly, I am more often than not laughing my head off when I write most of my posts; assuredly, I am gasping for merciful breath when I read some of the replies!)

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Spammer, I mean Bammer,

you gushed:

I notice not one of you finger pointers (at Palmer) can discredit his research.

And when we do, you'll shut your eyes and stick your fingers in your ears.

Bully for you, Grant Palmer!  You are a modern day hero amidst a gathering of weak-kneed frauds!  Or, as Arnold would say, "girlie-men."

So his heroism consisted in--what, exactly? Writing a mediocre anti-Mormon book, dishonestly accepting a CES paycheck for years after forming his hilarious opinions, or dishonestly claiming to be an "insider" to Mormon origins?

If only ALL Latter-day Saints would rise up and reveal what they know.

Okay.

I herein reveal that I know that Palmer formed most of his idiotic opinions based on his acceptance of Mark Hofmann's "Salamander" letter as genuine.

I also know that he pseudonymously circulated an early draft of "Insider's View" back in the day, but heroically shut up about it after Hofmann's fraud was discovered.

I futher know that Palmer can't tell the difference between seeing snakes in an elder-bush and having three visitations of an angel; that he can't tell the difference between subsequently remembering the snakes and having the angel return; and that he can't tell the difference between reading and translating.

Will that do, or would you like me to keep revealing?

Regards,

Pahoran

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Yawn. Still waiting for Shawn (Bammer) to kindly detail the deception of FARMS in regard to Palmer's book.

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Beowulf,

you wrote:

However, in one section, he comes out with the truly novel concept that JS got his ideas for the Golden Plates and the angel from (wait for it):  The Golden Pot.

Say what? :P   This is a strange little German fantasy tale that even the most jaundiced anti-Mormon observer would find extremely difficult to get anything Mormonesque out of it.

And this is Palmer's brilliant new discovery?

It seemed pretty brilliant when it first occurred to him. Don't forget, Mark Hofmann's "Salamander" letter was then hot news, and the pseudo-scholars were gleefully embracing it as a definitive evidence of the Book of Mormon's "real" origin. The key to the Great and Wonderful Connection between the Book of Mormon and Der Goldne Topf was the notion of Moroni as a "salamander," just like Archivarius Lindhorst.

Of course, the exposure of the Hofmann fraud means that this connection collapses, and so Palmer's book--even more than The Mighty Quinn's magjickk book--has a large salamander-shaped hole right through the middle of it.

But that won't stop Palmer's wannabe acolytes from fawning all over him.

Regards,

Pahoran

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....I think his book was fresh, fair, and a perfect springboard for "the brethren" to distance themselves with Joseph and the BOM and embrace classic Christian theology.

This could very well be why Deseret Book carries Palmer's book along with "American Apocrypha: Essays on the Book of Mormons" and "Mormon Enigma."

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I notice not one of you finger pointers (at Palmer) can discredit his research. I notice you are simply in disagreement with his making the information public not with the information he provides. Herein lies the good old boy mentality of online and live Church defenders. "Just because it's true and historical doesn't mean anyone should reveal it - especially one of our own CES instructors . . . and especially after he retires!" They cry.

Let's just say (for arguements sake) that Palmer took what you all think was the chicken way out because he didn't drop his bomb until he was retired. So what?

Jonah didn't go straight to Ninevah and Peter denied the Lord thrice. The point is, Palmer did the right thing in the end, and backslapping good old boy defenders of politically-operated machines always take umbrage to such action.

Bully for you, Grant Palmer! You are a modern day hero amidst a gathering of weak-kneed frauds! Or, as Arnold would say, "girlie-men." If only ALL Latter-day Saints would rise up and reveal what they know.

IJA,

BAMMER

So Bammer,

You are ok with a liar and deceiver.

You know little about Palmer's history. I know the man that was his principle at Brighton High when Palmer started questioning. Well actually he had written already under pseudonym. He was a deceiver.

As for his what he wrote, where would you like to start? It is nothing new under the sun. Most has been refuted. Some will agree with the refutations. Some will not. The book is not all that astounding. The only alleged credence it has, and Palmer tries to milk it, is that he was a CES employee. Whoopie. He was dishonest one who is still getting paid by the church he spits on

I would be ashamed Apparently integrity is something Palmer lacks.

Teancum

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You see well from the position of that Harley, Vel.

YOU ADDED:

This could very well be why Deseret Book carries Palmer's book along with "American Apocrypha: Essays on the Book of Mormons" and "Mormon Enigma."

While all of these defenders of the faith try and disparage Palmer and his work with attacks based on the facts that he had an earlier manuscript with problems (whoa!) and that he used to be a Church employee (shame on him!) you have seen through the trees to a clearer picture of present-day Mormondom: The old stories just aren't holding water anymore and the brethren are carefully and cautiously trying to guide the Church toward less BOM, JS, PoGP, D&C, and more mainstream biblical thought. Here a little, there a little. Before you know it, brethren, you're gonna be praising Jesus, studying the Bible, and preparing for the rapture!

Come to Jesus, boys. In order for you to do it, your gonna have to drop all the BOM/JS junk. More than anything else, Grant Palmer has given you another reason to seek the LORD rather than fables.

IJA,

BAMMER

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Still yawning and still waiting for Shawn (Bammer) to kindly detail the deception of FARMS in regard to Palmer's book.

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Bammer,

you previously showed how out of touch you are with reality by playing up the following pipe dream:

I think his book was fresh, fair, and a perfect springboard for "the brethren" to distance themselves with Joseph and the BOM and embrace classic Christian theology.

Which Vel validated (heh heh) with the following irrelevancy:

This could very well be why Deseret Book carries Palmer's book along with "American Apocrypha: Essays on the Book of Mormons" and "Mormon Enigma."

A more likely explanation is that Deseret Book carries books that are of interest to Latter-day Saint readers, not merely "faith promoting" morg-speak.

Nevertheless, unable or unwilling to see how your silly anti-Mormon stereotypes feed on themselves, you gushed forth:

While all of these defenders of the faith try and disparage Palmer and his work with attacks based on the facts that he had an earlier manuscript with problems (whoa!)

Nope.

His published work still has the same problems. He's papered over the cracks a little, which is why the early drafts are useful to show the evolution of his silly notions.

and that he used to be a Church employee (shame on him!)

Yes, people with principles tend to take a somewhat jaundiced view of sneaky disloyalty.

But you don't.

Hmmmm...

you have seen through the trees to a clearer picture of present-day Mormondom: The old stories just aren't holding water anymore and the brethren are carefully and cautiously trying to guide the Church toward less BOM, JS, PoGP, D&C, and more mainstream biblical thought.

:P<_<:unsure::ph34r::angry::blink::wub::huh::lol::P:o;):):(:D:lol:

(Wiping my eyes)

That's really funny, Bammer!

Just last week I received my October Ensign. It contained, as an insert, a DVD entitled "The Restoration," portraying Joseph's First Vision, the coming forth of the Book of Mormon, and the organisation of the Church.

You are living in fantasyland.

Before you know it, brethren, you're gonna be praising Jesus,

Leaf through one of our hymn books, and you'll discover that we always have. Just more reverently than you lot do.

studying the Bible

Again, we always have. I spent two years of Seminary studying the Bible, and have spent two out of every four years of adult Sunday School on it ever since.

I know this doesn't match your silly anti-Mormon stereotypes, but reality never does.

and preparing for the rapture!

No, we'll be preparing for the Second Coming of Christ.

Oh, wait. We already are.

Who'da thunk it?

Come to Jesus, boys. In order for you to do it, your gonna have to drop all the BOM/JS junk. More than anything else, Grant Palmer has given you another reason to seek the LORD rather than fables.

Yes, we will seek the Lord, as revealed in ancient and modern scripture, and not fables like the Nicene Creed, or the "rapture."

Regards,

Pahoran

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Still yawning and still waiting for Shawn (Bammer) to kindly detail the deception of FARMS in regard to Palmer's book.

I think you'll be waiting a while. Despite his talk about "research" and "sources," Bammer is all gush and no substance.

Regards,

Pahoran

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While all of these defenders of the faith try and disparage Palmer and his work with attacks based on the facts that he had an earlier manuscript with problems (whoa!) and that he used to be a Church employee (shame on him!) you have seen through the trees to a clearer picture of present-day Mormondom: The old stories just aren't holding water anymore and the brethren are carefully and cautiously trying to guide the Church toward less BOM, JS, PoGP, D&C, and more mainstream biblical thought. Here a little, there a little. Before you know it, brethren, you're gonna be praising Jesus, studying the Bible, and preparing for the rapture!

You sound just like the Economist, that fine British newsmagazine, did way back in 1987 or so, when it reported on the Hoffman affair, and finished up the article with a report (based on no discernible evidence) that there was a project currently in progress at BYU to reveal that, no, the BofM was not real after all. Just inspired fiction, etc., etc.

I was laughing for days.

Here we are nearly 20 years later, and wishful thinkers like yourself still hope and pray that Mormons will somehow stop being Mormons and join the real world.

Well, it isn't going to happen.

You should have listened to the recent General Conference a little more carefully. To see how many times the BofM, D&C, PoGP and JS were referenced during those two days.

Of course, we also spent those two days "praising Jesus" as you say.

Beowulf

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bammer:

you have seen through the trees to a clearer picture of present-day Mormondom: The old stories just aren't holding water anymore and the brethren are carefully and cautiously trying to guide the Church toward less BOM, JS, PoGP, D&C, and more mainstream biblical thought. Here a little, there a little.

Which is, of course, why President Hinckley had this to say at General Conference:

Now, my brothers and sisters, I express to you again my love. May heaven smile upon you. This work is true. Never doubt it. God our Eternal Father lives. Jesus is our Redeemer, our Lord, the Son of the living God. Joseph was a prophet, the Book of Mormon is of divine origin, and this is God's holy work in the earth. I leave you my witness, my love, my blessing as we separate to go to our homes. May God be with you till we meet again is my humble prayer, in the sacred name of Jesus Christ, amen.

Clearly, he's trying to distance himself from the Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith.

Before you know it, brethren, you're gonna be praising Jesus,

We already are...

studying the Bible,

We already are...

and preparing for the rapture!

Could you please point out just where the word "rapture" appears in the scriptures? Thanks.

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We had a request for the entire text.

The following appeared in the Palmyra Register, dated Wednesday, 28 June 1820:

Effects of Drunkenness--DIED at the house of Mr. Robert McCollum, in this town, on the 26th inst. James Couser, aged about forty years. The deceased, we are informed, arrived at Mr. McCollum's house the evening preceding, from a camp-meeting which was held in this vicinity, in a state of intoxication. He, with his companion who was also in the same debasing condition, called for supper, which was granted. They both stayed the night--called for breakfast next morning--when notified that it was ready, the deceased was found wrestling with his companion, who he flung with the greatest ease,--he suddenly sunk down upon a bench,--was taken with an epileptic fit, and immediately expired.--It is supposed he obtained his liquor, which was no doubt the cause of his death, at the Camp-ground, where, it is a notorious fact, the intemperate, the lewd and dissolute part of community too frequently resort for no better object, than to gratify their base propensities.

The deceased, who was an Irishman, we understand has left a family, living at Catskill this state.

The Palmyra Register is a weekly paper. In the next issue, dated Wednesday, 5 July 1820, the following follow-up appears:

"Plain Truth" is received. By this communication, as well as by the remarks of some of our neighbors who belong to the Society of Methodists, we perceive that our remarks accompanying the notice of the unhappy death of James Couser, contained in our last, have not been correctly understood. "Plain truth" says, we committed "an error in point of fact," in saying that Couser "obtained his liquor at the camp-ground." By this expression we did not mean to insinuate, that he obtained it within the enclosure of their place of worship, or that he procured it of them, but at the grog-shops that were established at, or near if you please, their camp-ground. It was far from our intention to charge the Methodists with retailing ardent spirits while professedly met for the worship of their God. Neither did we intend to implicate them by saying that "the intemperate, the dissoute, &c. resort to their meetings."--And if so we have been understood by any one of that society, we assure them they have altogether mistaken our meaning.

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This is from our FAIR message board archives. I didn't post it, but I am copying it here for your information.

Scott

Clark Posted on: Sep 24 1998, 06:51 AM A few other things on the revivals from my archives

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Here is another post from the FAIR board archives. Again, it is not my post, but I am copying it here for you to see.

John Russell Posted on: Oct 23 1998, 01:00 AM Just a quick note to WPW,

It seems appropriate that at Halloween time we should be haunted by the ghost of Reverend Wesley P. Walters (I assume that that is what WPW stands for). How are things on the other side?

There is much yet to be learned about the historical issues surrounding the First Vision. Milton Backman has done a nice job of pointing out many of these issues in his book "Joseph Smith' First Vision: Confirming Evidences and Contemporary Accounts" (2nd Ed., 1980, Deseret Book). Your conclusions make several unjustified assumptions, two of which I'll address briefly here.

First and foremost, you imply that we have a complete picture of events during that time period. We do not. The records of the Western Presbyterian Church, to which several of the Smiths belonged until 1830, are missing (Book A) prior to 1828. The records of the Methodist Society in Palmyra are likewise nonexistent prior to 1823. Reliance on the Palmyra Register/Wayne Sentinel as an absolute source for all occurrences in the area is similarly risky, as this was a short weekly "newspaper" that attempted to cover a wide range of topics of local, regional, and national interest. Its coverage was, by necessity, limited. Many local events were not included in the newspaper, possibly because much of the information was spread by word of mouth. A well-known example was a Methodist camp meeting near Palmyra in June 1820 that would have been forever forgotten had not an Irishman named James Couser died shortly after the gathering, apparently as a result of intoxication (Pamlyra Register, 28 June 1820, with somewhat humorous followup in the subsequent issue of 5 July). We have no journals of the vast majority of the participants, leaving Joseph Smith and those who knew him best to ascertain the truth of what occurred in the woods on that spring day.

Second, you assume that since your sources are themselves comprehensive in their scope (flawed assumption above), your conclusions are likewise comprehensive and definitive. As noted above, the church records are incomplete, the newspaper is a valuable, but limited, resource, and there are few journals to which we can turn. Assuming falsely that one has seen all the evidence can easily lead to false conclusions. Karl Popper pointed out "...it is far from obvious, from a logical point of view, that we are justified in inferring universal statements from singular ones, no matter how numerous; for any conclusion drawn in this way may always turn out to be false: no matter how many instances of white swans we may have observed, this does not justify the conclusion that <all> swans are white" (The Logic of Scientific Discovery, p. 27; Harper Books 1968). In the absence of comprehensive data, one is incapable of drawing definitive conclusions. The data from which you draw are hardly comprehensive.

Indeed, to look beyond the Palmyra confines, one does see a dramatic swell of religious fervor throughout the region during an extended period which includes the period of Joseph Smith's vision. There were membership increases throughout the region, and in communities near Palmyra, during the period of 1818-1820 (and there were some dramatic increases within Palmyra churches in the period of 1814-1818). All of this is presented very nicely in Milton Backman's book, but much is also available directly from the various groups involved. The Methodists are particularly helpful with their records.

But with regard to whether membership increases are an effective indicator of religious fervor, such intense feelings can be expressed in other ways as well. In researching my genealogy, I found a group of ancestors associated with the Paris Presbyterian Society, outside of Utica New York, during the late 18th and early 19th centuries. This group was small and fairly isolated, but nevertheless felt the intense religious fervor that prevailed in the region during the Great Awakening. After founding the society in 1793 (with the assistance of Jonathan Edwards, Jr.), the church grew spottily until the shortly after 1814. At this time, there were considerable doctrinal tensions, which eventually came to a head over the issue of Bible-based governance. Some left the group as a result of the debate, but finally the church split in 1821 to form a congregational and a presbyterian society. In this particular case, the religious zeal translated into a loss of membership, and ultimately to separation of factions. Growth in membership is not always an adequate barometer of intense religious zeal, contrary to what you suggest.

I'm sorry that I don't have time to reply to all of your objections right now. I just wanted to toss out a few things for the moment. I hope to respond more fully later (or someone else better suited can do so), provided that life slows up enough to allow me to do so.

Best regards, and give our best to Joseph Smith if you see him.

John Forum: Bible (Archives)

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Now here is my question:

We have message board posters in 1998 who had information that contradicts Palmer's claim of no revival. So why does it appear in Palmers book?

1) Was Palmer a poor researcher?

2) Did he have an agenda that caused him to deliberately leave it out?

3) Other?

He claims he was active in the Mormon History Association, so he certainly should have been familiar with the quotes. If nothring else, he could have asked Bushman if he had heard about this.

If mulltiple message board posters in 1998 knew about it, one would think that a "Historian" that is an "Insider" should certainly be familiar with this information.

This brings up another question. I see the "no revival" claim on many Web sites that discuss Mormonism. Why?

I would think there should at least be an acknowlegement that there is contrary evidence.

Scott

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I think u overrate Backman's research. I have a couple of letters where Wes Walters deals with Backman's book and considers him basically a dishonest man, especially in one footnote, and his map where he moves towns closer than they really are, counts one twice. If thats all Bushman has to rely on then he is up a creek. All the evidence to my mind points to the 1823-24 revival, Smith just moved it back a few years. Walters nailed Bushman in his Dialogue 1969 article and not bad for a man who did the research in his vacation time. When i am near my files I will reproduce his letters.

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I have a couple of letters where Wes Walters deals with Backman's book and considers him basically a dishonest man

"What is it with these people?" hissed Peterson nastily. "Everybody who disagrees with them is branded as dishonest."

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I found this online "Milton Backman has demonstrated that in the summer of 1819, Methodists held a significant conference in Vienna just a few miles from Joseph's home. The meeting was attended by more than a hundred ministers of the Methodist faith, including the Reverend George Lane. "

Vienna NY is nearly 100 miles from Manchester NY. Is this what Backman considers close?

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Guest Lux

I'll throw in my .02 . . .

I live in the deep south and there are "tent revivals" frequently. In fact, a carpenter whom I often hire preaches at them all over the place (he has some pretty interesting views too, but back to the subject). Have I ever seen them in the local paper? No. Do I hear many people talk about them? Not usually. Does it surprise me that few records can be found of specific revivals of the past? Not one bit. Do I think they (these past revivals) could have taken place? Certainly.

Until . . .

Lux

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I found this online "Milton Backman has demonstrated that in the summer of 1819, Methodists held a significant conference in Vienna just a few miles from Joseph's home. The meeting was attended by more than a hundred ministers of the Methodist faith, including the Reverend George Lane. "

Vienna NY is nearly 100 miles from Manchester NY.  Is this what Backman considers close?

In my copy of Backman's Joseph Smith's First Vision, "Vienna, New York" doesn't occur in the index. However, "Vienna Road" does. The Vienna Road ran essentially to the southeast, from just north of Palmyra Village to Phelps Village (formerly called Vienna), which is roughly ten miles east of Manchester.

On pages 80-81, Dr. Backman discusses Methodist camp meetings held along the Vienna Road.

It probably isn't wise to rely too heavily on internet summaries of Professor Backman's position. He should be permitted to speak for himself.

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I found this online "Milton Backman has demonstrated that in the summer of 1819, Methodists held a significant conference in Vienna just a few miles from Joseph's home. The meeting was attended by more than a hundred ministers of the Methodist faith, including the Reverend George Lane. "

Vienna NY is nearly 100 miles from Manchester NY.  Is this what Backman considers close?

In my copy of Backman's Joseph Smith's First Vision, "Vienna, New York" doesn't occur in the index. However, "Vienna Road" does. The Vienna Road ran essentially to the southeast, from just north of Palmyra Village to Phelps Village (formerly called Vienna), which is roughly ten miles east of Manchester.

On pages 80-81, Dr. Backman discusses Methodist camp meetings held along the Vienna Road.

It probably isn't wise to rely too heavily on internet summaries of Professor Backman's position. He should be permitted to speak for himself.

I don't have his book, thanks for the correction.

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