33 replies to this topic

[Mortal Man]

Today in our broadcast stake conference we learned that the prophet predicts the stock market. Elder Erying related a story of a time when he was standing in the presence of the First Presidency and the prophet received a revelation that the stock market was about to crash. His counselors confirmed that they too had received this prompting and felt they should act on it. The prophet then instructed Elder Erying, who was then in charge of the church's financial investments, to sell stocks and move the church's holdings to traditionally conservative investments, which he did. Shortly thereafter, the stock market did indeed tank, but the church's investments were protected due to the prophet's diligence in heeding the promptings of the spirit. Elder Erying was subsequently visited by a chief financial officer of the church's investment firm who expressed wonder at the miraculous nature of the church's massive sell order and declared that the LDS church was the only client of his firm to see the crash coming. He asked Elder Eyring how he foresaw the event. Elder Erying reported that, of course, he could not tell him it was a revelation to the Lord's prophet. Elder Erying then bore his testimony to us that the Lord directs and protects the church's investments through His prophet. He then admonished us to follow the prophet and seek his counsel in all that we do.

This left me with the following questions:

1) Should the prophet pass along his stock market revelations to the general membership of the church?
2) How can we follow the prophet if he keeps his prophecies secret?
3) How can we seek out his financial counsel?
4) Could the stock market prophecies be put on lds.org?

Edited by Mortal Man, 30 January 2011 - 05:03 PM.

[nicolasconnault]

Mortal Man, on 30 January 2011 - 01:39 PM, said:

1) Should the prophet pass along his stock market revelations to the general membership of the church?
2) How can we follow the prophet if he keeps his prophecies secret?
3) How can we seek out his financial counsel?
4) Could the stock market prophecies be put on lds.org?

1) If the Lord tells him to do so, yes
2) Does he keep them all secret?
3) Do we need our financial counsel to come from the prophet? Are we not entitled to our own revelation for financial matters affecting our family?
4) See 1)

[Mortal Man]

nicolasconnault, on 30 January 2011 - 01:42 PM, said:

2) Does he keep them all secret?

I'm unaware of any talk or article in which this "sell now" prophecy was given to the general membership before disaster struck.

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3) Do we need our financial counsel to come from the prophet?

The theme of the conference was to follow the living prophet, who is vastly more important than any dead prophet. Every speaker pounded this home; e.g., the Lord didn't instruct Adam to build an ark etc. I think this makes a lot of sense, since dead prophets can't pick good stocks.

Edited by Mortal Man, 30 January 2011 - 05:07 PM.

[thesometimesaint]

All I want is tomorrows closing stock numbers, well before the closing bell.

[TAO]

Mortal Man, revelation is to be given as God sees fit.  If God didn't see it fit here to distribute the information, that is good enough for me.

[Mortal Man]

TAO, on 30 January 2011 - 02:27 PM, said:

Mortal Man, revelation is to be given as God sees fit.  If God didn't see it fit here to distribute the information, that is good enough for me.

D&C 88:81 Behold, I sent you out to testify and warn the people, and it becometh every man who hath been warned to warn his neighbor.

It seems rather unbecoming of the prophet not to warn his neighbors when the Lord warns him about wild swings in the market.

I think that a section of the Ensign devoted to stock market prophecies would go a long way toward silencing the critics who claim that the prophet doesn't receive revelations anymore. And that would enable us to follow the prophet more diligently, without all the guesswork.

Edited by Mortal Man, 30 January 2011 - 05:12 PM.

[keithb]

Mortal Man, on 30 January 2011 - 01:39 PM, said:

Today in our broadcast stake conference we learned that the prophet predicts the stock market. Elder Erying related a story of a time when he was standing in the presence of the First Presidency and the prophet received a revelation that the stock market was about to crash. His counselors confirmed that they too had received this prompting and felt they should act on it. The prophet then instructed Elder Erying, who was then in charge of the church's financial investments, to sell stocks and move the church's holdings to traditionally conservative investments, which he did. Shortly thereafter, the stock market did indeed tank, but the church's investments were protected due to the prophet's diligence in heeding the promptings of the spirit. Elder Erying was subsequently visited by a chief financial officer of the church's investment firm who expressed wonder at the miraculous nature of the church's sell order and declared that the LDS church was the only client of his firm to see the crash coming. He expressed wonder at Elder Erying's massive sell order and asked, "How did you know this was coming?" Elder Erying said that, of course he could not tell him it was a revelation to the Lord's prophet. Elder Erying then bore his testimony to us that the Lord directs and protects the church's investments through His prophet. He then admonished us to follow the prophet and seek his counsel in all that we do.

This left me with the following questions:

1) Should the prophet pass along his stock market revelations to the general membership of the church?
2) How can we follow the prophet if he keeps his prophecies secret?
3) How can we seek out his financial counsel?
4) Could the stock market prophecies be put on lds.org?

Huh. It's strange how these stories always surface AFTER the calamity has occurred. Do we have any independent confirmation (perhaps in the form of internal memos or financial documents) that this stock transfer actually took place? I would be curious to see this evidence.

[TAO]

Mortal Man, on 30 January 2011 - 04:33 PM, said:

D&C 88:81 Behold, I sent you out to testify and warn the people, and it becometh every man who hath been warned to warn his neighbor.

It seems to me that it's rather unbecoming of the prophet not to warn his neighbors, once the Lord has warned him about the stock market.

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“Remember, the wisdom of God may appear as  foolishness to men, but the greatest single lesson we can learn in  mortality is that when God speaks and a man obeys, that man will always  be right.”
-Thomas S. Monson

Do you think the Lord is going to think badly of them if that were his instructions for the moment?

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I think that a section of the Ensign devoted to stock market prophecies would go a long way toward silencing the critics who claim that the prophet doesn't receive revelations anymore.

God sends his revelations to specific people.  They are not to be told until he asks them to be told.  In this case, it was meant to be kept private.

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And that would enable us to follow the prophet without all the guesswork.

Na, that would just be seeking signs.  It is important not to do that; it is important to go on faith.

[keithb]

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D&C 88:81 Behold, I sent you  out to testify and warn the people, and it becometh every man who hath  been warned to warn his neighbor.

It seems to me that it's rather  unbecoming of the prophet not to warn his neighbors, once the Lord has  warned him about the stock market.

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“Remember, the wisdom of God may appear as   foolishness to men, but the greatest single lesson we can learn in   mortality is that when God speaks and a man obeys, that man will always   be right.”
-Thomas S. Monson


Do you think the Lord is going to think badly of them if that were his instructions for the moment?

I like your quote by TSM. It's exactly the same thing I keep telling people when they ask me about the whole BY Adam-God thing. In any case, it's difficult to know what God thinks of them; I'll ask him next time he comes over for dinner.

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I  think that a section of the Ensign devoted to stock market prophecies  would go a long way toward silencing the critics who claim that the  prophet doesn't receive revelations anymore.

God sends his revelations to specific people.  They are not to be told  until he asks them to be told.  In this case, it was meant to be kept  private.

Why? Don't you think that news of an impending natural or financial disaster might be of some use to the church membership?

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And that would enable us to follow the prophet without all the guesswork.

Na, that would just be seeking signs.  It is important not to do that; it is important to go on faith.

See, this is exactly what I tell all of my TBM cronies when they question my belief of the aliens Ron Hubbard wrote about. "You just have to have faith," I tell them.

[TAO]

keithb, on 30 January 2011 - 05:03 PM, said:

I like your quote by TSM. It's exactly the same thing I keep telling people when they ask me about the whole BY Adam-God thing. In any case, it's difficult to know what God thinks of them; I'll ask him next time he comes over for dinner.

I seem to remember a quote by the FP saying the Adam-God Theory as it is understood today is incorrect.  As understood today being the key exception words.

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Why? Don't you think that news of an impending natural or financial disaster might be of some use to the church membership?

Doesn't matter.  When God says you shouldn't do something, you don't do it.  Also, if we had a mass withdrawal of stocks by that amount, it would actually effect the market - so even if God didn't give instructions as to whether to tell the church membership or not, it would probably not be a good idea, as it might cause the crash early.

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See, this is exactly what I tell all of my TBM cronies when they question my belief of the aliens Ron Hubbard wrote about. "You just have to have faith," I tell them.

I seem to remember God saying that there are other planets with human-like creatures on them =P. Book of Abraham/Book of Moses/Bible, right?

Also... Keithb, I do not appreciate it when you subtly mock my beliefs.  Please stop it if you wish to have a conversation.

Edited by TAO, 30 January 2011 - 05:20 PM.

[keithb]

TAO, on 30 January 2011 - 05:17 PM, said:

I seem to remember a quote by the FP saying the Adam-God Theory as it is understood today is incorrect.  As understood today being the key exception words.

CFR. To me, I think the FP generally avoids talking about this subject. They probably wish that it would disappear entirely.

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Doesn't matter.  When God says you shouldn't do something, you don't do it.  Also, if we had a mass withdrawal of stocks by that amount, it would actually effect the market - so even if God didn't give instructions as to whether to tell the church membership or not, it would probably not be a good idea, as it might cause the crash early.

I know. If God says don't do something, you'd better not do it, I agree. Maybe this is the same reason why the church just won't use the priesthood to cure the world AIDS epidemic: God told them not  to, so they won't. However, it does kind of make me think about the type of God that is running our church: he has the opportunity to alleviate a lot of suffering but chooses not to do so. It makes me wonder how the next life is going to be if he acts like that now. Oh well, whatever God commands is right, and I trust God :|

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I seem to remember God saying that there are other planets with human-like creatures on them =P. Book of Abraham/Book of Moses/Bible, right?

Yes, I hear that he has been having a horrible time with Kronos-J5. The whole planet is being sucked into a black hole, and things are just a mess.

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Also... Keithb, I do not appreciate it when you subtly mock my beliefs.  Please stop it if you wish to have a conversation.

Mocking? Me? Never!

[TAO]

keithb, on 30 January 2011 - 05:32 PM, said:

CFR. To me, I think the FP generally avoids talking about this subject. They probably wish that it would disappear entirely.

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We warn you against the dissemination of doctrines which are not  according to the Scriptures and which are alleged to have been taught by  some of the General Authorities of past generations. Such, for  instance, is the Adam-God theory. We denounce that theory and hope that  everyone will be cautioned against this and other kinds of false  doctrine.

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I know. If God says don't do something, you'd better not do it, I agree. Maybe this is the same reason why the church just won't use the priesthood to cure the world AIDS epidemic: God told them not  to, so they won't. However, it does kind of make me think about the type of God that is running our church: he has the opportunity to alleviate a lot of suffering but chooses not to do so. It makes me wonder how the next life is going to be if he acts like that now. Oh well, whatever God commands is right, and I trust God :|

Do you not know why we suffer here on Earth, and it's need for a good purpose?  There is a good purpose indeed.

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Yes, I hear that he has been having a horrible time with Kronos-J5. The whole planet is being sucked into a black hole, and things are just a mess.

Nah, that's just you having trouble with it.  I'm sure he understands it completely.

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Mocking? Me? Never!

I wouldn't have guessed.

[Brenda]

nicolasconnault, on 30 January 2011 - 01:42 PM, said:

1) If the Lord tells him to do so, yes
2) Does he keep them all secret?
3) Do we need our financial counsel to come from the prophet? Are we not entitled to our own revelation for financial matters affecting our family?
4) See 1)

I agree.  The Prophet, as president of the Church, is the steward over the Church's finances.  He received instructions to safeguard them and did so.  We have a stewardship over our own finances, and are entitled to receive similar guidance.  

So the question is, are we tuned in and listening?

[Mortal Man]

Brenda, on 30 January 2011 - 06:15 PM, said:

The Prophet, as president of the Church, is the steward over the Church's finances.

And those finances depend on tithes and offerings, which, in turn, depend on members' personal finances, including their successes and failures in the stock market.

Brenda, on 30 January 2011 - 06:15 PM, said:

So the question is, are we tuned in and listening?

We know that the Lord will never issue personal revelations contradicting the words of His prophet; e.g., if the prophet is selling then we shouldn't be buying. There is safety in following the prophet and heeding his counsel. If only we could find out what that counsel is.

Edited by Mortal Man, 30 January 2011 - 06:52 PM.

[nicolasconnault]

I have this growing feeling that there are big tests of faith coming up for the Church membership, and that most of them will involve trusting the prophets. When I see the cynicism, doubt and ridicule pouring out of many posters on this forum, I worry for them and many other members who think they know better. I wonder if they would be willing to consider whether their doubts and comments are inspired by the Holy Spirit or "some other spirit" (D&C 50).

[Balzer]

You guys are pulling my leg with this stuff right? The prophet predicts the stock market? Thats just awesome. Just a thought, but maybe what was meant to be observed was the stuff about always following your prohpet. This would be one heck of a lesson tool on that score! Btw, that quote from the Book of Mormon saying something about sharing info with neighbors, is that all neighbors? Cause I want in!

Respectfully,

Balzer

[nicolasconnault]

Balzer, on 30 January 2011 - 07:45 PM, said:

You guys are pulling my leg with this stuff right? The prophet predicts the stock market? Thats just awesome. Just a thought, but maybe what was meant to be observed was the stuff about always following your prohpet. This would be one heck of a lesson tool on that score! Btw, that quote from the Book of Mormon saying something about sharing info with neighbors, is that all neighbors? Cause I want in!

Respectfully,

Balzer

Yeah, thanks for demonstrating exactly why the prophet shouldn't be sharing this type of prophecy with everyone

[Questing Beast]

I wouldn't seek investment advice from "the prophet". They have never offered any to the general membership of the Church. So I don't even believe this story is for real. And I won't check it because I don't care if Eyring said something of the sort or not. Joseph Smith nearly got lynched for making his financial predilections public; and the anti-trust bank of Kirtland went bust in 1837 during the general crash. He had not warned anyone that the crash was coming; but he did pull his money out before the crash, giving as his reason that the Saints were not entering into the investment business with the proper spirit; but rather with an intention to get personal gain. He did predict (or said later that he had) that the Kirtland bank would fail because of the spirit of speculation that had taken hold of the investors.

But back then the prophet was more intimately associated with the members. Today the prophet would have to announce his financial advice via a "letter from the First Presidency" to be read in wards from the pulpit. What a change in sacrament meeting atmosphere that would create!...

[Balzer]

nicolasconnault, on 30 January 2011 - 08:20 PM, said:

Yeah, thanks for demonstrating exactly why the prophet shouldn't be sharing this type of prophecy with everyone

Funny! Not very neighborly, but funny.

On a slightly more serious note, why wouldn't the prophet be expected to share this information with everyone? Put another way, why would he want to keep it a secret?

Respectfully,

Balzer

[nicolasconnault]

Balzer, on 30 January 2011 - 08:25 PM, said:

Funny! Not very neighborly, but funny.

On a slightly more serious note, why wouldn't the prophet be expected to share this information with everyone? Put another way, why would he want to keep it a secret?

Oh I included LDS members in "everyone", don't worry

Why wouldn't the prophet share this with everyone? Why did Jesus tell some of the recipients of his miracles not to tell anyone? What happened when he fed the 5,000?

The purpose of the Church is to bring souls unto Christ. The prophets share the same purpose. They are not there to make life easier for people by telling them how to make a buck. If the prophets started making public accurate prophecies about financial matters, on a consistent basis, what would happen to global economy? Have you thought of the ramifications?

I don't want to go into a slippery slope fallacy here, but this kind of argument warrants a bit more thought, in my opinion, before jumping to conclusions such as "they did it for personal gain".