The Stick of Joseph

[Zakuska]

Moses blessing to Joseph seems to play into this...

Duet 33

13

[Mortal Man]

For example, the Atacama Desert is located in Chile, and numerous mummies have been found there due to the very dry conditions. Analysis of the mummies shows the presence of HTLV-1 virus -- of a type found otherwise only in southern Japan (Kyushu). A little further north along the coast, at Valdivia, Peru, is found pottery with the distinctive designs found only in southern Japan (Kyushu). Archeologist Betty Meggars of the Smithsonian has long maintained that there had to have been a boat or boats from Japan which brought such characteristics thousands of years ago. Hundreds of such "coincidences" have called into serious question the notion that everybody in the Americas came across Beringia.

Yeah, I saw that on the History channel the other day. Interesting stuff.

[Chris Smith]

I'm curious, how many people here have read both VotH and Robert's studies? Raise your hand; don't be shy.

I'll raise both:

IMO, the BoM doesn't plagiarize VotH. Clearly, though, both do partake of the same popular mythology about Hebrew Indians.

[Mortal Man]

I'll raise both:

Chris gets two points!

IMO, the BoM doesn't plagiarize VotH. Clearly, though, both do partake of the same popular mythology about Hebrew Indians.

I don't think the BoM plagiarizes VotH either. I don't think any serious critic has ever claimed that. Rather, I think the BoM fulfills the prophecies in VotH and other similar books. I see the BoM as the sequel to VotH. Clearly the early saints saw it what way and several 20th century church leaders saw it that way as well.

[Bill Hamblin]

Chris gets two points!

I don't think the BoM plagiarizes VotH either. I don't think any serious critic has ever claimed that. Rather, I think the BoM fulfills the prophecies in VotH and other similar books. I see the BoM as the sequel to VotH. Clearly the early saints saw it what way and several 20th century church leaders saw it that way as well.

Which is to say that the BOM and VH both draw on the Bible, the real source of the prophecies in each.

[Palerider]

The problem with "coincidences" is that they can come back and bite you when they don't go your way. A double-edged sword as it were.

For example, the Atacama Desert is located in Chile, and numerous mummies have been found there due to the very dry conditions. Analysis of the mummies shows the presence of HTLV-1 virus -- of a type found otherwise only in southern Japan (Kyushu). A little further north along the coast, at Valdivia, Peru, is found pottery with the distinctive designs found only in southern Japan (Kyushu). Archeologist Betty Meggars of the Smithsonian has long maintained that there had to have been a boat or boats from Japan which brought such characteristics thousands of years ago. Hundreds of such "coincidences" have called into serious question the notion that everybody in the Americas came across Beringia.

The upshot is that the native Chilean tradition may be correct and supported by hard evidence.

You have no problem here with me. I wouldn't be surprised if there were numerous trans-pacific and trans-atlantic voyages and interactions over the centuries. Vikings, east asians, Egyptians, etc. I just don't happen to believe that the Book of Mormon is a historical record of any of those proceedings.

[Kevin Christensen]

I'm curious, how many people here have read both VotH and Robert's studies? Raise your hand; don't be shy.

I've read both. Plus John W. Welch, "Answering B.H. Roberts Questions and "An Unparallel," (a superb paper that should be put online) and several other relevant things. Nibley's discussion of methodology, for instance. Daniel Peterson on the topic. The BYU Studies article comparing the Isaiah quotations used. Neither Ethan Smith, nor the Roberts study impressed me. I have noticed that George D. Smith, Brigham Madsen, and Grant Palmer prefer not to mention the existence of Welch's comprehensive paper when locking and loading the Study.

I'm impressed by the BYU Religious Studies publication of Views, along with the FARMS Review notice.

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/review/?vol=9&num=1&id=247

I like this from Hedges in the above link:

The tradition in which Ethan Smith was writing was a long and venerable one

[Mortal Man]

I've read both.

Two points for Kevin! Plus a brownie point and/or gold star for all that other stuff!

What do you think of the civilized people who got wiped out by their savage brethren?

The probability then is this; that the ten tribes, arriving in this continent with some knowledge of the acts of civilized life; finding themselves in a vast wilderness filled with the best game, inviting them to chase; most of them fell into a wandering idle hunting life. Different clans parted from each other, lost each other, and formed separate tribes. Most of them formed a habit of this idle mode of living, and were pleased with it. More sensible parts of this people associated together, to improve their knowledge of the arts; and probably continued thus for ages. From these the noted relics of civilization discovered in the west and south were furnished. But the savage tribes prevailed; and in process of time their savage jealousies and rage annihilated their more civilized brethren. And thus, as a holy vindictive Providence would have it, and according to ancient denunciations, all were left in an "outcast" savage state. This accounts for their loss of the knowledge of letters, of the art of navigation, and of the use of iron. And such a loss can no more operate against their being of the ten tribes, then against their being of any other origin. Yea, we cannot so well account for their evident degeneracy in any other way, as that it took place under a vindictive Providence, as has been noted, to accomplish divine judgements denounced against the idolatrous ten tribes of Israel.

It is highly probable that the more civilized part of the tribes of Israel, after they settled in America, became wholly separated from the hunting and savage tribes of their brethren; that the latter lost the knowledge of their having descended from the same family with themselves; that the more civilized part continued for many centuries; that tremendous wars were frequent between them and their savage brethren, till the former became extinct.

This hypothesis accounts for the ancient works, forts, mounds, and vast enclosures, as well as tokens of a good degree of civil improvement, which are manifestly very ancient, and from centuries before Columbus discovered America. These magnificent works have been found, one near Newark in Licking county, Ohio; one in Perry county, Ohio; one at Marietta; one at Circleville; one at Paint Creek; one on the eastern bank of the Little Miami river, Warren county; one on Paint Creek near Chillicothe; one on the Scioto river; and other places.

These works have evinced great wars, a good degree of civilization, and great skill fortification. And articles dug from old mounds in and near those fortified places, clearly evince that their authors possessed no small degree of refinement in the knowledge of the mechanic arts.

These partially civilized people became extinct. What account can be given of this, but that the savages extirpated them, after long and dismal wars? And nothing appears more probable than that they were the better part of the Israelites who came to this continent, who for a long time retained their knowledge of the mechanic and civil arts; while the greater part of their brethren became savage and wild. -- No other hypothesis occurs to mind, which appears by any means so probable. The degrees of improvement, demonstrated to have existed among the authors of those works, and relics, who have ceased to exist, far exceed all that could have been furnished from the north-east of Asia, in those ancient times.

[Kevin Christensen]

Two points for Kevin! Plus and brownie point and/or gold star for all that other stuff!

What did you think about the civilized people who got wiped out by the savage people?

I think that the existence of the Mound Builder Myth(I have also read Silverberg's The Moundbuilders, and Vogel's Indian Origins and the Book of Mormon, among other things) and the Lost 10 Tribes theory expressed by Ethan Smith distorted the way early readers read the Book of Mormon. For that matter, it even colored Harold Bloom's (mis)reading. For instance, the notion that the civilized mound builders were wiped out by savage remnants pre-conditions some readers to totally overlook texts like this in the Book of Mormon, in Moroni 9:

And notwithstanding this great abomination of the Lamanites, it doth not exceed that of our people in Moriantum. For behold, many of the daughters of the Lamanites have they taken prisoners; and after depriving them of that which was most dear and precious above all things, which is chastity and virtue

[Mortal Man]

And further, one of my all time favorite essays on the Book of Mormon is the Thomasson and Hawkins paper on "Survivor Witness and the Book of Mormon," comparing the character of Mormon and Moroni to patterns of behavior seen by Terrence Des Pres in a study of Nazi and Soviet Death camp survivors, who felt compelled to "survive and bear witness." Nothing I have read in Ethan Smith, or Brodie, or Vogel, or Brigham Madsen, or George D. Smith, or Coe, or Silverberg, or Grant Palmer, or B. H. Roberts came close to preparing me for that essay. I find that far far more elaborate, unexpected, and impressive than the very general and frankly inaccurate misreading of the Book of Mormon as depicting a civilized society being wiped out by savages.

A striking new study has been initiated comparing a subtle, recurring pattern in the Book of Mormon with a particular type of human behavior recently identified in the writings of the "survivors" of Hitler's and Stalin's death camps. A link between these testimonies might at first seem unlikely, but upon reflection, however, it is clear that Mormon and Moroni, Lehi and Nephi, Alma and Amulek (Alma 14:10-11), Ether (Ether 15:34) and Coriantumr (Omni 1:21), and others in the Book of Mormon were also witnesses of atrocious deaths and genocide.

It is also clear that Frodo Baggins and Samwise Gamgee were witnesses of atrocious deaths and genocide.

The "utmost concern" of such survivors was to hide up a record "preserved for future generations." One survivor speaks of his duty to witness as a "mission," a "sacred task," and a "burning within me, screaming: 'Record!' "

I like how Frodo compiled the records of Bilbo and added his own account to them, then passed the record along to Samwise to finish and preserve for future generations.

[Kevin Christensen]

It is also clear that Frodo Baggins and Samwise Gamgee were witnesses of atrocious deaths and genocide.

I like how Frodo compiled the records of Bilbo and added his own account to them, then passed the record along to Samwise to finish and preserve for future generations.

Tell us, in 1916, where was J. R. R. Tolkien? What personal experiences in the trenches of WWI was he having that neither Ethan Smith, nor Joseph Smith never experienced first hand?

And further, Thomasson/Hawkins paper on Survivor-Witnesses includes far more detail:

1. The will to remember and record anchors the survivor in the moral purpose of bearing witness, thus maintaining his own integrity in conscious contradiction of the savagery around him (Mormon 3:11

[volgadon]

What do you think of the civilized people who got wiped out by their savage brethren?

Proof positive that Ethan Smith plagiarised Edward Gibbon.