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David Bokovoy

Textual Divisions in Isaiah and the BofM

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For it must needs be, that there is an opposition in all things. If not so... righteousness could not be brought to pass, neither wickedness, neither holiness nor misery, neither good nor bad. -- 2 Nephi 2:11

:P and what in the world does that have to do with winning?

Again, this isn't a football game. There isn't anyone with a scoreboard, and nobody is going to be coming out and holding up the winner's hand. This isn't a "Black or White", "Good or Evil", kind of thing. This is a discussion. This an exchange of view points.

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Bbbbzzzzzztttt! Wrong again. Thanks for playing.

I'm sorry Bill, but players are forbidden to use buzzers or whistles of any kind; those are strictly for the refs. Fifteen yard penalty.

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Okay, but when you add up all these "profound"s, it leaves that impression, especially when you don't "expect Abinadi

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If I understood correctly, you seemed to imply that the Masoretes may have divided the text at 53:1 for the same reasons as Abinadi:

You didn't. I stated that some of the Masoretes divided the text in the same why Abinadi did, but I never said, nor implied that they did so for the same reason.

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I stated that some of the Masoretes divided the text in the same why Abinadi did, but I never said, nor implied that they did so for the same reason.

Okay, let's say that Abinadi and the Masoretes both divided the text at 53:1 for completely independent and unrelated reasons. This leaves us with a remarkable unexplained coincidence.

On the other hand, if we say that "some of the MT MSS explanations of textual divisions feature a connection with the literary separation marked in Abinadi

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Okay, let's say that Abinadi and the Masoretes both divided the text at 53:1 for completely independent and unrelated reasons. This leaves us with a remarkable unexplained coincidence.

No, it really doesn

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Excellent post Bokovoy. Very enlightening. Context is indeed most important. **sarc** But since Abinidi's quote happens to coincide with a chapter break I don't believe it. **end sarc** Let this be a lesson to us all to always quote scripture beginning a few verses before the applicable material.

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Best not to confuse your confusion with warm and fuzzy facts.

You know David, if you had just offered me one of your smoked BBQ ribs, I might not have become such a hardened heretic.

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You know David, if you had just offered me one of your smoked BBQ ribs, I might not have become such a hardened heretic.

What are you talking about, Andrew?!! Half of my friends are hardened heretics and many of the rest are apostates. You know you've got an open invite for smoked ribs at my house.

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What are you talking about, Andrew?!! Half of my friends are hardened heretics and many of the rest are apostates. You know you've got an open invite for smoked ribs at my house.

Woohoo!:P

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Bump.

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Vance,

For whom is your "bump" intended?

Bump.

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Vance,

For whom is your "bump" intended?

;) Rats, and here I was all excited that Rob had added to the discussion. Bummer... Hopefully next time :P

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Vance,

For whom is your "bump" intended?

Do you not have a reply to David's response?

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As I mentioned four days ago, I have a lot of other issues I need to address. If I have time, I may come back and post a response to David, but honestly, I'm just too busy at the moment.

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As I mentioned four days ago, I have a lot of other issues I need to address. If I have time, I may come back and post a response to David, but honestly, I'm just too busy at the moment.

I suppose then that you don't have time to respond to Brant's post either.

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This morning on the train to work, I re-read John Welch's essay "Isaiah 53, Mosiah 14, and the Book of Mormon" in the Isaiah in the Book of Mormon volume. One of the things that stands out is how much crucial information that Welch gleans from the fact that Abinadi is on trial, and that Noah's priest's cite Isaiah 52 as part of an approach designed to convict Abinadi of false prophesy. David mentions this in passing, but Welch's legal expertise brings out more telling details. Reading Welch's essay compared to Rob's reading in this thread will highlight just how little of the relevant legal context that Rob sees in his critique. Again, for those who want to understand what is happening, I recommend reaching this essay, just one of several very interesting ones in the book. And of course, I also like Margaret Barker's essay on "The Original Background of the Fourth Servant Song" as being Hezekiah's bout with the plague in light of the role of the atoning high priest.

Kevin Christensen

Pittsburgh, PA

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David,

I

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Hello Rob,

As always, I enjoy reading your posts. Thanks for the thoughtful response. I too have moved on to some other projects now, and have little time to devote to this thread. I'll simply state:

1. I apologize for overstating your claim regarding this specific issue. It was unintentional. While I believe you've raised a good question here (hence my efforts at writing a response), in my mind this is not a very big "straw," (to adopt your terminology). As I have attempted to illustrate, I don't believe it's an issue. If we want to talk big straws, in my mind we would have to address Mortal Man's goalposts on Deutero-Isaiah.

2. We'll simply have to agree to disagree on Genesis 2:4. I'm convinced that it creates closure to the Priestly version of creation via an inclusio with 1:1.

3. I felt that I had addressed the Mosiah section you suggest that I skipped over by showing how Abinadi's message of redemption was central to his prophetic commission. Moreover, the fact that the material in Mosiah 12 and 14 is separated by the material in 13 in my mind doesn't negate my analysis, but instead simply illustrates the literary complexity of this amazing book.

4. I'm not convinced that Watts is correct. My use of his commentary simply illustrates that the issue of the suffering servant(s) is open for debate (a fact which provides more evidence that this issue is not a "straw," let alone a big one.

Best,

---DB

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David,

Thanks for the stimulating discussion. I appreciate it.

For what it's worth, I reject the Deutero-Isaiah theory, so I do not support criticism of the inclusion of Isaiah 48-54 in the Book of Mormon on that basis. Oddly, though, at least one LDS scholar who frequents this forum does accept the idea of a postexilic Deutero-Isaiah. I don't see any plausible way to square that idea with the Book of Mormon.

Hello Rob,

As always, I enjoy reading your posts. Thanks for the thoughtful response. I too have moved on to some other projects now, and have little time to devote to this thread. I'll simply state:

1. I apologize for overstating your claim regarding this specific issue. It was unintentional. While I believe you've raised a good question here (hence my efforts at writing a response), in my mind this is not a very big "straw," (to adopt your terminology). As I have attempted to illustrate, I don't believe it's an issue. If we want to talk big straws, in my mind we would have to address Mortal Man's goalposts on Deutero-Isaiah.

2. We'll simply have to agree to disagree on Genesis 2:4. I'm convinced that it creates closure to the Priestly version of creation via an inclusio with 1:1.

3. I felt that I had addressed the Mosiah section you suggest that I skipped over by showing how Abinadi's message of redemption was central to his prophetic commission. Moreover, the fact that the material in Mosiah 12 and 14 is separated by the material in 13 in my mind doesn't negate my analysis, but instead simply illustrates the literary complexity of this amazing book.

4. I'm not convinced that Watts is correct. My use of his commentary simply illustrates that the issue of the suffering servant(s) is open for debate (a fact which provides more evidence that this issue is not a "straw," let alone a big one.

Best,

---DB

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For what it's worth, I reject the Deutero-Isaiah theory

No doubt, since it presents a severe problem not just for Mormonism but all of Christianity. Nevertheless, it cannot be denied; Isaiah 40-55 were written near the end of the Babylonian captivity.

I sense another thread coming on where the teams might get switched around. I'd actually like to see you defend the unity of Isaiah. I hope you could do a better job than Bill did.

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Nevertheless, it cannot be denied. Isaiah 40-55 were written at the end of the Babylonian captivity.

Actually, the end of the captivity as the composition date is far from being required by the Deutero-Isaiah theory.

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No doubt, since it presents a severe problem not just for Mormonism but all of Christianity. Nevertheless, it cannot be denied. Isaiah 40-55 were written at the end of the Babylonian captivity.

I sense another thread coming on where the teams might get switched around a bit. I'd actually like to see you defend the unity of Isaiah. I hope you could do a better job than Bill did.

Obviously you've learned nothing from our discussions. You don't have to agree with me, but you certainly need to be able to accurately describe my position. Otherwise, what's the point of talking to you? (I've concluded there is none.)

1- It's not a problem for Christianity. How could it possibly be a problem?

2- It can be denied. Lots of very good scholars do. They may be wrong, but they can make the argument

3- I never defended the unity of Isaiah. (I'm agnostic on the matter, though I lean in favor of it.) My position was that the issue for the BOM is not Deutero-Isaiah, but the dating of the chapters of Deutero-Isaiah that appear in the BOM.

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Bill,

Could there be any position less satisfactory, scholastically speaking, than denying the unity of Isaiah but dating "Deutero-Isaiah" before the Babylonian Exile (and before Cyrus!)? Such a position would seem to have all of the supposed difficulties of the traditional view (to which I adhere) but few or none of the supposed benefits of the multiple-Isaiah theory. It's like not having your cake and not having eaten it, either.

Obviously you've learned nothing from our discussions. You don't have to agree with me, but you certainly need to be able to accurately describe my position. Otherwise, what's the point of talking to you? (I've concluded there is none.)

1- It's not a problem for Christianity. How could it possibly be a problem?

2- It can be denied. Lots of very good scholars do. They may be wrong, but they can make the argument

3- I never defended the unity of Isaiah. (I'm agnostic on the matter, though I lean in favor of it.) My position was that the issue for the BOM is not Deutero-Isaiah, but the dating of the chapters of Deutero-Isaiah that appear in the BOM.

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Bill,

Could there be any position less satisfactory, scholastically speaking, than denying the unity of Isaiah but dating "Deutero-Isaiah" before the Babylonian Exile (and before Cyrus!)? Such a position would seem to have all of the supposed difficulties of the traditional view (to which I adhere) but few or none of the supposed benefits of the multiple-Isaiah theory. It's like not having your cake and not having eaten it, either.

Indeed, if Deutero-Isaiah was a contemporary of Lehi and Jeremiah then how could Nephi et al. have confused him with Proto-Isaiah?

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