• Announcements

    • Nemesis

      Contact Us Broken   09/27/2016

      Users, It has come to our attention that the contact us feature on the site is broken.  Please do not use this feature to contact board admins.  Please go through normal channels.  If you are ignored there then assume your request was denied. Also if you try to email us that email address is pretty much ignored.  Also don't contact us to complain, ask for favors, donations, or any other thing that you may think would annoy us.  Nemesis

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

David Bokovoy

Textual Divisions in Isaiah and the BofM

120 posts in this topic

I wonder what Bowman will say in reply.

Regardless, good analysis! :P;)

0

Share this post


Link to post

Isn't Bokovoy just awesome! (I think I saw his skin sparkling in the sunlight one day.)

If someone started a Bokovoy fan club, I'd join.

1

Share this post


Link to post

David,

This is the sort of serious response I was interested in seeing. I will need to take some time to examine your argument carefully before responding. Thanks for the good effort.

0

Share this post


Link to post

Isn't Bokovoy just awesome! (I think I saw his skin sparkling in the sunlight one day.)

If someone started a Bokovoy fan club, I'd join.

That was probably just smoke oozing out of my pores. Then again, the "e" in David E. Bokovoy does stand for "Edward," so maybe you're on to something.

0

Share this post


Link to post

That was probably just smoke oozing out of my pores. Then again, the "e" in David E. Bokovoy does stand for "Edward," so maybe you're on to something.

Maybe just sweat sparklingly reflecting the flames of your smoker as you smoked those delicious ribs!

0

Share this post


Link to post

David,

This is the sort of serious response I was interested in seeing. I will need to take some time to examine your argument carefully before responding. Thanks for the good effort.

Thanks, Rob. As always, I look forward to reading your response. It's worth noting that in his commentary for the Jewish Publication Society Study Bible, Benjamin Sommer refers to Isaiah 53:1-11a as a distinct literary unit that he labels, "The Surprised Observers' Speech" (see pg. 891). Sommer identifies 52:12-15 as "God's First Speech." I would assume that this analysis reflects the Jewish division of the pericope with a setuma prior to 53:1.

Best,

-DB

0

Share this post


Link to post

So even though Rob is correct that the full textual pericope runs from 52:13-53;12 there exists a well-established Jewish tradition for interpreting Isaiah 53:1 as a new thematic unit. Hence, in beginning his citation of the Suffering Servant passage with Isaiah 53:1, Abinadi proves consistent with the literary approach taken in several Hebraic manuscripts including the Dead Sea Scrolls.

Which adds understanding to why John used Isa 53:1 here.

John 12:37

0

Share this post


Link to post

Threads like these and Brants are why I keep coming back here.

0

Share this post


Link to post

Hi David,

While you're waiting for Rob, perhaps you'll entertain a few queries from the peanut gallery.

Some Masoritic manuscripts feature a setuma or

1

Share this post


Link to post

Which adds understanding to why John used Isa 53:1 here.

John 12:37

0

Share this post


Link to post

This is the day of [peace about which God] spoke [of old through the words of Isa]iah the prophet, who said: Isa 52:7 "How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of the messenger who announces peace, of the mess[enger of good who announces salvation], saying to Zion: 'your God [reigns']." Its interpetation: The mountains are the pro[phets ...] And the messenger is [the ano]inted of the spirit [mashiach haruach] about whom Dan[iel] spoke ["...until the time of (the/an) Anointed Prince [mashiach nagid] there will be seven weeks . . . after sixty-two weeks, (the/an) Anointed shall be cut off" Dan 9:25, 26 ]. [... and the messenger of] good who announces salv[ation] is the one about whom it is written that [he will send him Isa 61:2-3 "to comfo[rt the afflicted, to watch over the afflicted ones of Zion"]. "To comfo[rt the afflicted," its interpretation:] to instruct them in all the ages of the worl[d...] in truth. [...][...] it has been turned away from Belial and it [...] [...] in the judgments of God, as is written about him: Isa 52:7 "Saying to Zion: 'your God rules'." ["Zi]on" is [the congregation of all the sons of justice, those] who establish the covenant, those who avoid walking [on the pa]th of the people. "Your God" is [Melchizedek, who will fr]ee [them] from the hand of Belial. And as for what he said: Lev 25:9 "You shall blow the hor[n in every] land."

- 11QMelchizedek

Behold I say unto you, that whosoever has heard the words of the prophets, yea, all the holy prophets who have prophesied concerning the coming of the Lord

1

Share this post


Link to post

So you're saying that Abinadi was just following John's example? I thought you were an apologist.

Even you can't be that dense. So I'll be generous and assume this is just pointless snideness.

1

Share this post


Link to post

Isn't Bokovoy just awesome!

Perhaps he can explain why Isaiah 48 & 49 constitute a single literary unit and why Nephi had a sophisticated understanding of Isaiah's original meaning in these chapters.

0

Share this post


Link to post

It appears to me this break is simply due to reaching the bottom of the scroll.

Isaiah5113-5212.jpg

This is a very small break and shortened lines such as this occur frequently between chapter divisions.

Sorry, but as usual, you've got it all wrong. First, there are no chapter or verse divisions in the DSS Bible. The breaks in the line are not arbitrary, and are not between chapters--as you should be able to note from the pictures you posted which have modern chapter and verse inked in by some scholar. They are not there in the Hebrew. The short white spaces are called set

3

Share this post


Link to post

He's so awesome I'll bet he can explain why Isaiah 48 & 49 constitute a single literary unit and why Nephi had a sophisticated understanding of Isaiah's original meaning in these chapters. If he can do that, I'll apply for Junior Booster Boy in his fan club.

Why do you think Nephi's Pesher would necessarily be the same as Isaiah's original meaning? Nobody else's interpretation in subsequent Jewish history did. That was part of the "things/debarim of the Jews" method of interpreting scripture.

J. Blenkinsopp, Opening the Sealed Book: Interpretations of the Book of Isaiah in Late Antiquity (2006).

0

Share this post


Link to post

He's so awesome I'll bet he can explain why Isaiah 48 & 49 constitute a single literary unit and why Nephi had a sophisticated understanding of Isaiah's original meaning in these chapters. If he can do that, I'll apply for Junior Booster Boy in his fan club.

Any chance you can tone down the snideness? No, I suppose not.

0

Share this post


Link to post

Sorry, but as usual, you've got it all wrong. First, there are no chapter or verse divisions in the DSS Bible. The breaks in the line are not arbitrary, and are not between chapters--as you should be able to note from the pictures you posted which have modern chapter and verse inked in by some scholar. They are not there in the Hebrew.

Yes, I know all that. As I was writing "chapter divisions" I thought to myself, I'll bet Bill is going to lecture me on the absence of chapters in the DSS, and I considered putting "(KJV)" in there to be absolutely clear. Then I thought, Naw, he'll know what I mean. I should have gone with my first impression.

The short white spaces are called set
0

Share this post


Link to post

Any chance you can tone down the snideness?

I intended no snideness. If I came off that way I apologize.

0

Share this post


Link to post

Why do you think Nephi's Pesher would necessarily be the same as Isaiah's original meaning?

Because Isaiah's original meaning was "plain and precious" to Nephi.

1 Nephi 19:

3 And after I had made these plates by way of commandment, I, Nephi, received a commandment that the ministry and the prophecies, the more plain and precious parts of them, should be written upon these plates; and that the things which were written should be kept for the instruction of my people, who should possess the land, and also for other wisepurposes, which purposes are known unto the Lord.

He esteemed Isaiah's words to be of "great worth", and wouldn't deign to "set them at naught" by reintepreting them; i.e., he sought to "hearken" to the "voice" of Isaiah's "counsels".

7 For the things which some men esteem to be of great worth, both to the body and soul, others set at naught and trample under their feet. Yea, even the very God of Israel do men trample under their feet; I say, trample under their feet but I would speak in other words

0

Share this post


Link to post

Sorry, but as usual, you've got it all wrong.

Why am I always wrong "as usual"? Why can't I ever be wrong "for once"?

2

Share this post


Link to post

While you're waiting for Rob, perhaps you'll entertain a few queries from the peanut gallery.

So you're saying that Abinadi was just following John's example? I thought you were an apologist.

The peanut gallery, indeed.

0

Share this post


Link to post
]What do the Masoretes have to do with the Brass Plates?

The term Masoretes refers to the group of Jewish scholars who worked to maintain the tradition that governed the production of copies of the biblical text for liturgical and interpretive use. The Masoretes were simply part of the ancient scribal tradition that flourished in Israel/Judah for several centuries. These Jewish scribes labored meticulously to ensure that the biblical tradition passed on without change to succeeding generations. The beginning of this type of scribal effort, i.e.

2

Share this post


Link to post

Why am I always wrong "as usual"? Why can't I ever be wrong "for once"?

Alas, reality bites.

0

Share this post


Link to post

The term Masoretes refers to the group of Jewish scholars who worked to maintain the tradition that governed the production of copies of the biblical text for liturgical and interpretive use. The Masoretes were simply part of the ancient scribal tradition that flourished in Israel/Judah for several centuries. These Jewish scribes labored meticulously to ensure that the biblical tradition passed on without change to succeeding generations. The beginning of this type of scribal effort, i.e.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.