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tana

Baptism for the dead.

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Sins must be

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Belief which contradicts the bible is negative faith!

one love

:P The bible contradicts itself, does that mean that when you pick a side you have negative faith?

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Why didn't Jesus baptized any?

Why did Paul say he is glad he didn't baptized but about two people??

Also can you explain this??

The case against baptism for the dead is also made by the Mormon scriptures themselves. The current Mormon doctrine on baptism for the dead is quite unlike what Joseph Smith first taught. As in other cases, the Book of Mormon becomes an important tool for the Christian apologist. It contradicts much Mormon theology, and baptism for the dead is no exception.

In Alma 34:35-36 we read: "For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he does seal you his. Therefore, the spirit of the Lord has withdrawn from you and hath no place in you; the power of the devil is over you, and this is the final state of the wicked."

In other words, those who die as non-Mormons go to hell, period. There

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What is negative faith?

Its the dark side of the force. :P

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Why didn't Jesus baptized any?

Why did Paul say he is glad he didn't baptized but about two people??

Because Paul was sent to preach Christ ressurected and Apollos was sent to Baptize with water or preach Christ died.

Acts 18

24

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Belief which contradicts the bible is negative faith!

one love

Were is this doctrine taught? It sure is not in the bible. I have never read a verse in the bible that says "Negative faith is anything that contradicts the bible.

Any way you ahve not shown one thing that we as mormons beleive that contradicts the bible.

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In Alma 34:35-36 we read: "For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he does seal you his. Therefore, the spirit of the Lord has withdrawn from you and hath no place in you; the power of the devil is over you, and this is the final state of the wicked."

In other words, those who die as non-Mormons go to hell, period. There

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Why didn't Jesus baptized any?

You mean like this:

Matt. 3:11

or how about his instructions to the Apostles:

Matt 28:19

or how about any of these:

Mark 1:8

Mark 10:39

Mark 16:16

Luke 3:7

Luke 3:12

Luke 7:29

we can go on, but I think you get the picture.

Why did Paul say he is glad he didn't baptized but about two people??

Speaking of which lets look at the church in Corinth to see what their contentions are:

Starting at 1 Cor. 1:11-14 (which is to what you are referring)

For it hath been declared unto me aof you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are bcontentions among you.

Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.

Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;

Seems to me individuals may have actually have stated or declared they were in fact baptized by Christ. Hence why Christ would be mentioned among Appollos, Paul, and Cephas as from a lineage. It also seems to me that Paul was chastising the Church in Corinth for doing such, minus the two individuals who seem to be of a more upstanding character. This is not to say that he has only baptized two individuals in the entirety of his mission.

Also can you explain this??

Looks like I did.

The case against baptism for the dead is also made by the Mormon scriptures themselves. The current Mormon doctrine on baptism for the dead is quite unlike what Joseph Smith first taught. As in other cases, the Book of Mormon becomes an important tool for the Christian apologist. It contradicts much Mormon theology, and baptism for the dead is no exception.

In Alma 34:35-36 we read: "For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he does seal you his. Therefore, the spirit of the Lord has withdrawn from you and hath no place in you; the power of the devil is over you, and this is the final state of the wicked."

In other words, those who die as non-Mormons go to hell, period. There

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Because Paul was sent to preach Christ ressurected and Apollos was sent to Baptize with water or preach Christ died.

Acts 18

24

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One of the Missionaries in our ward was asked by a non-member....

"Do you have to get up early for Early Morning Cemetery, to do Baptisms of the Dead?"

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Can you see any reason (other than we can't know gods mind) why Jesus' baptism wouldn't serve the same purpose?

Apply Occam's razor and it seems much simpler to have one atonement for all....One baptism for all to accept or decline.

Occam's razor doesn't really work for religious topics. The simplest explanation is never the one involving faith.

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IF we were to acccept Baptism for the Dead as in the very least permissible in the scriptures, then how does one account for the LDS/Mormon practices of Confirmation/Laying on the Hands, washings/annointings/sealings by proxy for the dead as well? All these began in St. George, UT temple. It's my understanding that approx. 200 women were 'sealed' by proxy to the prophet Joseph Smith, Jr. for decades after his death. Some proxy 'sealings' to Joseph were done as early as late 1845 & early 1846. I remember reading an account of early member John Brush who later united with the Reorganization/RLDS church. He talked about how it dawned on him that Joseph didn't ask anyone to do these things on his behalf. John then went on to humorously say if he encountered Joseph in the afterlife, Joseph might tell John all those ugly women were his.

In Taiwan, Chinese culture is to burn spirit money for dead ancestors. Near the scene of an accident where there has been a loss of life like a bridge or train crossing, you can find stacks of spirit money that has been tossed out of vehicles for the dead. It's the belief that this spirit money is needed to keep the ancestors out of harms way & depending upon the type burned...it can be used to pay off guards in hell or keep them in the lap of luxury in heaven. One could say that proxy ordinances for the dead are similiar in nature. It's the hope of those living that their actions will not only benefit the dead, but are required for their salvation.

Baptism/Confirmation/washings/annointings/sealings for the Dead are like:

Someone pretend to be your Lawyer contracting debts in your behalf. The ultimate identity theft.

Someone writing 'Mormon' in marker on your face at youth camp while you slept in your bunk.

You get 5 minutes (opps eternity) in the closet with Bertha, Gladys, Gertrude etc..............That is if recognized as valid in the first place.

NauvooSaint

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Baptism/Confirmation/washings/annointings/sealings for the Dead are like:

Someone pretend to be your Lawyer contracting debts in your behalf. The ultimate identity theft.

More like someone claiming to be a friend putting money into your account with the notification that you have the choice to use it or not.

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In Taiwan, Chinese culture is to burn spirit money for dead ancestors. Near the scene of an accident where there has been a loss of life like a bridge or train crossing, you can find stacks of spirit money that has been tossed out of vehicles for the dead. It's the belief that this spirit money is needed to keep the ancestors out of harms way & depending upon the type burned...it can be used to pay off guards in hell or keep them in the lap of luxury in heaven. One could say that proxy ordinances for the dead are similiar in nature. It's the hope of those living that their actions will not only benefit the dead, but are required for their salvation.

My father, who served a three year mission in Japan, tells me that they perform a type of "baptism for the dead" in the non-LDS temples there by taking the dead persons name and writing it on a paper and then bringing the paper to the temple and submerging it in a bowl of Holy Water. Then placing it on the altar were it is dryed and burned in the daily prayer rituals.

Similarly is the candle lighting in the Catholic church for the departed.

PS. In greece they would give the dead money in their mouth or over their eyes to pay the fare on the ferry across the river styx.

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Hey Zak, care to reconcile the scriptures I quoted and the ones you have quoted here. I think all individuals may have baptized during their various ministries, but some more than others.

I completely agree.

Christ didn't baptize with water, but he sent his disciples to do that. Then later he baptized them with the Holy Ghost.

John 20

21Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.

22And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

23Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained

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Baptism/Confirmation/washings/annointings/sealings for the Dead are like:

Someone pretend to be your Lawyer contracting debts in your behalf. The ultimate identity theft.

Someone writing 'Mormon' in marker on your face at youth camp while you slept in your bunk.

You get 5 minutes (opps eternity) in the closet with Bertha, Gladys, Gertrude etc..............That is if recognized as valid in the first place.

NauvooSaint

Actually it is like none of those things.

Baptism/Confirmation/Washings/Anointings/Sealings for the Dead are what all the genuine Nauvoo Saints accepted.

Claiming to be a "Nauvoo Saint" while rejecting these things is like someone pretending to be your lawyer but actually arguing your opponent's case in court.

Regards,

Pahoran

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It is unforunate that Smith abandoned his own, earlier doctrine. It would not have made the Mormon scriptures any more authentic, but it would have prevented millions of futile Mormon proxy baptisms from being performed.

You have been warned multiple times about preaching. Banned from topic.

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You have been warned multiple times about preaching. Banned from topic.

In all fairness he didn't write that, but did copy and paste it.

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Why didn't Jesus baptized any?

Why did Paul say he is glad he didn't baptized but about two people??

one love

And yet he had to be baptized to have his sins remitted. Oh and Christ sought it out. Got Bible?

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