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Bill "Papa" Lee

A faith divided: (From Deseret News

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Edited for readability, no changes to spelling:

What about the Story of Ammon and the land of Jershon. This seems to be a clear example of the Lord directing a group of people to leave one country and migrate to another:

Alma 27

11And it came to pass that Ammon went and inquired of the Lord, and the Lord said unto him:

12Get this people aout of this land, that they perish not; for Satan has great hold on the hearts of the Amalekites, who do stir up the Lamanites to anger against their brethren to slay them; therefore get thee out of this land; and blessed are this people in this generation, for I will bpreserve them.

14And they gathered together all their people, yea, all the people of the Lord, and did gather together all their flocks and herds, and departed out of the land, and came into the wilderness which divided the land of Nephi from the land of Zarahemla, and came over near the borders of the land.

15And it came to pass that Ammon said unto them: Behold, I and my brethren will go forth into the land of Zarahemla, and ye shall remain here until we return; and we will atry the hearts of our brethren, whether they will that ye shall come into their land.

....

20And now it came to pass that Alma conducted his brethren back to the land of Zarahemla; even to his aown house. And they went and told the bchief judge all the things that had happened unto them in the land of Nephi, among their brethren, the Lamanites.

21And it came to pass that the chief judge sent a proclamation throughout all the land, desiring the voice of the people concerning the admitting their brethren, who were the people of aAnti-Nephi-Lehi.

22And it came to pass that the voice of the people came, saying: Behold, we will give up the aland of bJershon, which is on the east by the sea, which joins the land Bountiful, which is on the south of the land Bountiful; and this land Jershon is the land which we will give unto our brethren for an inheritance.

23And behold, we will set our armies between the land Jershon and the land Nephi, that we may aprotect our brethren in the land Jershon; and this we do for our brethren, on account of their fear to take up arms against their brethren lest they should commit sin; and this their great fear came because of their sore repentance which they had, on account of their many murders and their awful wickedness.

24And now behold, this will we do unto our brethren, that they may inherit the land Jershon; and we will guard them from their enemies with our armies, on condition that they will give us a aportion of their substance to assist us that we may maintain our armies.

Notice how the people in the destination country still had a chance to vote and approve of it. Also notice that the immigrants were required to work and help sustain the Nephites as a condition of allowing them in? The current situation with illegal immigrants entering the United States (as well as those entering Western Europe) is unlike this Book of Mormon story, which is a story of LEGAL immigration. Illegal immigrants don't respect all of the laws of the land they're moving to. Plus, many take advantage of government welfare programs designed to help needy Citizens.

There is also a brutal criminal element associated with illegal immigration (the Cartels which smuggle drugs and people and some of the street gangs that attract illegal and first generation children) whose actions remind me a great deal of the Gadianton robber stories from the Book of Mormon.

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So the people were merciful. How merciful will we be I wonder?

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Agreed...

It was and is my desire that we discuss this on the basis that for the Church

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So the people were merciful. How merciful will we be I wonder?

I think our country is extremely merciful and generous with legal immigrants.

However, people who enter the country illegally are rightfully exposed to the justice of the law

because the very act of crossing the border without permission flaunts the law and makes

a mockery of our generosity by accessing it dishonestly.

Bernard

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I think our country is extremely merciful and generous with legal immigrants.

However, people who enter the country illegally are rightfully exposed to the justice of the law

because the very act of crossing the border without permission flaunts the law and makes

a mockery of our generosity by accessing it dishonestly.

Bernard

So no mercy for illegals who were desperate to get into this nation eh? Only "justice"? I find that disturbing given we ourselves are the recipients of ultimate mercy. What would Christ say to our demand of only justice for one group, but our supplication for mercy from Him?

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So no mercy for illegals who were desperate to get into this nation eh? Only "justice"? I find that disturbing given we ourselves are the recipients of ultimate mercy. What would Christ say to our demand of only justice for one group, but our supplication for mercy from Him?

Render to Ceasar is what Christ has said. Those who are following the law of God have no need to violate the laws of man is what God/Christ has said. Follow the law, is the what God/Christ has said via Their Church on earth.

based on your logic we should have no law; for all have sinned.

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Well, I know this was brought up before but would you say that the extermination treaty which impelled us to enter Mexican territory illegaly meant we were violating the laws of God or Man?

based on your logic we should have no law; for all have sinned.

You presume that no justice can exist with mercy, or that some other punishment not so onerous could not fulfill man's justice which is itself imperfect.

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So no mercy for illegals who were desperate to get into this nation eh? Only "justice"? I find that disturbing given we ourselves are the recipients of ultimate mercy. What would Christ say to our demand of only justice for one group, but our supplication for mercy from Him?

He already said it: D&C 42....see above. We already have a process for people to enter

into our country. Millions have done it and thousands are standing in line to do it.

Why do some get to cut in line...and we have no idea who they are or what their

intentions are. Either we are a nation of laws or we are an anarchy. We cannot survive

the latter. What is your alternative? Free admission to all comers?

Bernard

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He already said it: D&C 42....see above. We already have a process for people to enter

into our country. Millions have done it and thousands are standing in line to do it.

Why do some get to cut in line...and we have no idea who they are or what their

intentions are. Either we are a nation of laws or we are an anarchy. We cannot survive

the latter. What is your alternative? Free admission to all comers?

Bernard

You've hit on the right question. What is the remedy?

Reagan said: Amnesty. I'm sure his advisors studied the issue as well as anybody. He legalized 2.7 million.

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He already said it: D&C 42....see above. We already have a process for people to enter

into our country. Millions have done it and thousands are standing in line to do it.

Why do some get to cut in line...and we have no idea who they are or what their

intentions are. Either we are a nation of laws or we are an anarchy. We cannot survive

the latter. What is your alternative? Free admission to all comers?

Bernard

You conveniently overlook the fact that Brigham Young and the Mormons with him "cut the line" to Mexico. We did not follow the immigration process in Mexico when we settled Utah.

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The black and white either or scenario is a fallacy. There is much that can be done that is not within the two options you framed.

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You've hit on the right question. What is the remedy?

Reagan said: Amnesty. I'm sure his advisors studied the issue as well as anybody. He legalized 2.7 million.

i can tell you from first hand knowledge that illegals who have no legal option for remaining the United States are advised "lay low, stay out of trouble, there will probably be ANOTHER amnesty granted in a few years"

amnesty is not the answer.

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I will not be the person who tells a fellow Latter-Day Saint who holds a recommend given to him/her by a servant of the Lord that I will kick them back to a disintigrating country where they could possibly fall to great harm or live in poverty for most of the rest of their lives. It is not in me. It is not in the church either. I think the prophets and apostles have been very clear that "get out" is not an option.

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Define amnesty.

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frankenstein:

The gospel is not a suicide pact. We are to elect wise and good men to enact wise and good laws. I am under no obligation to obey, honor, or sustain any extermination order.

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i can tell you from first hand knowledge that illegals who have no legal option for remaining the United States are advised "lay low, stay out of trouble, there will probably be ANOTHER amnesty granted in a few years"

amnesty is not the answer.

I think if it wasn't the answer Reagan would have done something else.

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I think if it wasn't the answer Reagan would have done something else.

so we grant another amnesty, which provides even more incentive for illegals to flood into the US because once there are enough illegals or squeaky wheels another amnesty will be granted.

rewarding illegals is a slap in face and an afront to all who are forced to wait because of the nation of birth and it proximity to the United States.

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frankenstein:

The gospel is not a suicide pact. We are to elect wise and good men to enact wise and good laws. I am under no obligation to obey, honor, or sustain any extermination order.

filing a form and waiting is not the same has murder, infact your comparison is rather silly.

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You've hit on the right question. What is the remedy?

Reagan said: Amnesty. I'm sure his advisors studied the issue as well as anybody. He legalized 2.7 million.

No names

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I will not be the person who tells a fellow Latter-Day Saint who holds a recommend given to him/her by a servant of the Lord that I will kick them back to a disintigrating country where they could possibly fall to great harm or live in poverty for most of the rest of their lives. It is not in me. It is not in the church either. I think the prophets and apostles have been very clear that "get out" is not an option.

First off, anyone involved in breaking laws is not worthy of that recommend. Secondly, Mexico and other countries are not beyond all hope. They have problems, as all countries do, maybe more than other places, but most people are fine. My friends who live in Mexico have normal lives and get along just fine. Thirdly, as I said before "get out" was an option for a good brother who wanted to get baptized but needed to set his life in order to do so and moved back to Guatemala.

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Stake Presidents and Bishops and the church disagree with you on your first point.

On your second point: The fact that you have to state Mexico is not beyone hope reflects how deteriorated things are. And the CIA has already begun running scenarios of a total government collapse. Something that has ticked up significantly. Mexico's problems are considerably worse than most Latin American Countries I have lived in, and I have lived in Mexico for quite a number of years. Not sure who your friends are, perhaps they are well off in well protected neighborhoods.

On your third point, the church does not require you to go back to your home country to be baptized if you are here illegally, that person may well have decided to return and "make things right" for other reasons.. Again your opinion finds itself at odds with prophets and apostle and the church. I can see perhaps some revelation regarding what you should do personally, but revelation regarding what other people should do when you are not in authority to state as much? The church should never be an arm of the state and require people to leave the country for baptism. Do you give up your temple recommend when you speed? Regardless of whether or not you are caught?

I am still waiting for someone to reconcile the church's illegal immigration into Mexican territory under Brigham Young with their somewhat absolutist stance on the law of the land.

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I am still waiting for someone to reconcile the church's illegal immigration into Mexican territory under Brigham Young with their somewhat absolutist stance on the law of the land.

what was the "immigration policy" in 1847 or even BY got there?

What "laws" did he and LDS violate in entering the Wastach front?

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Stake Presidents and Bishops and the church disagree with you on your first point.

"Are you honest in your dealings with your fellow man (Unless it involves immigration status)?" - We should really get on amending that.

On your second point: The fact that you have to state Mexico is not beyone hope reflects how deteriorated things are.

No it doesn't. I do not believe the USA to be beyond all hope either.

And the CIA has already begun running scenarios of a total government collapse. Something that has ticked up significantly. Mexico's problems are considerably worse than most Latin American Countries I have lived in, and I have lived in Mexico for quite a number of years. Not sure who your friends are, perhaps they are well off in well protected neighborhoods.

From your description it sounds like Mexico could use some hard working people back there to clean things up. The CIA runs scenarios on all kinds of things that never happen. Mexico is not a place from which people need to claim asylum. That may change, but for now the majority of its citizens live normal, productive and even fulfilling lives. And no, my friends are not rich and protected.

On your third point, the church does not require you to go back to your home country to be baptized if you are here illegally, that person may well have decided to return and "make things right" for other reasons.. Again your opinion finds itself at odds with prophets and apostle and the church. I can see perhaps some revelation regarding what you should do personally, but revelation regarding what other people should do when you are not in authority to state as much?

My mission president and area authority required us to tell him to go back. They seem to have represented "the church".

The church should never be an arm of the state and require people to leave the country for baptism.

The church requires people to do a lot of things to bring their lives into accordance with the teachings of the church. Of which, I might add, the 12th article of faith is one, or have we amended that too?

Do you give up your temple recommend when you speed? Regardless of whether or not you are caught?

I do not speed. And I am not kidding.

I am still waiting for someone to reconcile the church's illegal immigration into Mexican territory under Brigham Young with their somewhat absolutist stance on the law of the land.

Mexico didn't even have immigration laws in 1847, as in 1833 they got rid of some anti-immigration laws that were established in 1830. Thus the church's immigration was not illegal. In 1847 the ownership of the Utah territory was up in the air anyway. Mexico, the USA, the Shoshone and the Utes all had claims. The Mexican-American war was happening which would result in the official 1847-1848 claim of Utah as an American territory. That was easy.

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what was the "immigration policy" in 1847 or even BY got there?

What "laws" did he and LDS violate in entering the Wastach front?

It is pretty well documented. Mexican authorities used the military to imprison and usher out Americans trying to settle in their territory without a visa -- a pass from the governor in Monterrey. John C. Fremont writes all about his experience. As do other trappers and traders who spent time incarcerated.

In the Great Basin, however, Mexican presence was almost non-existent. Mexican garrisons were in California and Santa Fe, not the Salt Lake Valley. But that didn't make squatting lawful just because the owner wasn't there to shoo them off. Brigham Young, in my view, made a calculated decision to go there and specifically there. Exactly what he thought would happen, happened. The US took an interest in the valley and took it.

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