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Bill "Papa" Lee

A faith divided: (From Deseret News

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I see a lot of very disturbing zealotry in this discussion.

Regards,

Pahoran

Agreed...

It was and is my desire that we discuss this on the basis that for the Church

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Your comments are inane and useless.

I asked him to stop

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I asked him to stop

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There is no doubt nations have a double standard when focusing on each other. I think the church's standard attempts to reach a level of fairness. As I have stated, we see two competing doctrines here, mercy and rule of law. Both are necessary but which should take precedence when they conflict? And to what extent (versus the standard "either/or".

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Well, if you must insist upon imposing some sort of immigration policy (which I think hypocritical in light of how most of our ancestors got here), then you must

...

Incorrect. Most of our ancestors were the sons of colonists not immigrants.

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BookofMormonLuvr:

The Muslims are no more wicked than the Christians.

You are absolutely right... they are equally wicked. The Lord is using a heathen nation to punish those who claim to follow His name but are full of all kinds of blasphemies and whoredoms, as He has done countless times in the past (see the Bible and Book of Mormon)

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In my experience the LDS are a moderating force. We really don't go to extremes in either direction...

Does that mean you are lukewarm?

Rev. 3:16

So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

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Pa Pa, we don't need the CHI on this issue. There are enough Public Releases from the Church on the issue to know what the Church is getting at. Some one from the Church stated illegals are a common trespasser, but how does the Church treat trespassers and should the Country/State be allowed to do the same.

But as for Bishops and missionaries. It is well documented on the pages of MADB and in the news that illegals in the United States are called to serve missions in the United States.

The Church stance is:

Compassion,

Countries are free to protect their borders,

Persons are responsible/accountable the pain they bring upon their families,

Persons are to obey the laws of the land.

Lests just take compassion. Often, if not always, in the Church, when "punishment" is spoken, one will hear "I see punishment as God's love". So we can see from God that one can be compassionate and loving while giving out punishment.

And speaking of Compassion. Here is a situation I have shared before.

A man and his son come to the office, they want to know the process for getting the wife and daughters from a country in Africa to the United States, the man is told "It will take at least 5 years, you should not leave the United States to go see them, it is a real shame but you will not be able to see you wife and daughters for at least 5 years, and it may be upto 10 years until your all of you daughters can enter the United States"

The mans response, he was holding back tears "This is not fair, had we been born on this side of the world, we could have just come across the border as a family illegally"

So all those calling for "amensty", who has the greater claim on a free pass?

The law breaker or the person doing everything by the book?

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Incorrect. Most of our ancestors were the sons of colonists not immigrants.

those whose families go back the US revolution it would not be incorrect.

those whose families who came the US via Ellis Island received the benefit to what eraye refers (i think)

Colonization was a "might = right to the land and authority of it inhabitants", "Christian = right to the land and authority of it inhabitants", "cultivating the land = right to the land and authority of it inhabitants"

european countries came the western hemisphere and claimed it as their own without any regard to those who already possessed the land.

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BookofMormonLuvr:

I am not lukewarm when it comes to the gospel, and I retain the right to disagree with anyone's personal interpretation of it.

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BookofMormonLuvr:

... I retain the right to disagree with anyone's personal interpretation of it.

As do I.

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those whose families go back the US revolution it would not be incorrect.

those whose families who came the US via Ellis Island received the benefit to what eraye refers (i think)

Colonization was a "might = right to the land and authority of it inhabitants", "Christian = right to the land and authority of it inhabitants", "cultivating the land = right to the land and authority of it inhabitants"

european countries came the western hemisphere and claimed it as their own without any regard to those who already possessed the land.

I responded to the idea that most of our ancestors were immigrants. When someone says "our ancestors", he is speaking as a citizen of the USA whose founding starts with the colonizing of this slab of land by the british empire. From that point till the late 19th century, almost all the citizens were descendants of those colonizers. I am incorrect if only a minority of today's citizens roots go back to the british empire.

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My wife says that to me sometimes. But only when she loses the argument. Of course, when your wife loses the argument, so do you.

:P;):crazy:

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LT123:

The American Indians just might take exception to that.

Nope, they're smarter than that. An immigrant is an outsider that becomes a member of a polity. The Brits didn't. They formed their own.

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LT123:

I don't know as they were any smarter. But they sure got here before the British. :P

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LT123:

I don't know as they were any smarter. But they sure got here before the British. :P

Dude, lol, what? As far as immigration, I say get rid of borders. The founding father's vision of a limited government has been dead since the Germans got here in the late 19th century and established the welfare state. It's time to try something new. Like a Mormon monarchy...that could be cool. Just kidding, mostly.

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LT123:

I don't know how limited it was. I think a lot of things have come up since 1784 that the Constitution doesn't address. IE. They probably had no idea of modern airplanes, or travel in them. So we since 1903 have had to address it.

But they did know all about the concentration of wealth the precipitated the modern welfare state. Shamelessly lifted from http://www.commondreams.org/view/2010/08/02-5

"This is a very old story, and I

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On what basis? If one can apply it to God's kingdom then it is a misapplication of scripture to not be able to liken it to a temporal kingdom God has set up and named Jesus Christ as the God of it and required that everyone who lives there to keep the commandments or be swept off.
Even if one accepts as a given that Jesus Christ leads the United States of America, it is a stretch to say He sanctions any particular political administration or regime currently in office,

This is an incorrect view of the doctrine as the reality is that he would sanction that which facilitates the gospel and be in opposition to that which hinders it.

and it is improper to convey the impression that He endorses a political position in immigration or other matters of public policy.

It's quite proper to convey the doctrine and scripture which apply to the issue which is what I have done. If it seems to match a political position, so what? If it is in opposition to a political position, then woe unto to those who hold to that position. Frankly I'm suprised you don't seem to know this.

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BCSpace:

I'm more interested in my being on Gods' side than I am in God being on my side. :P

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I'm more interested in my being on Gods' side than I am in God being on my side.

Me too. And that is why I compare my side with God's side to see if I am really on His side.

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Me too. And that is why I compare my side with God's side to see if I am really on His side.

:P As we all should...

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Good point...did not think of that. Thanks.

No problem. I appreciate your trying to talk about this from a scriptural perpective. Whenever politics get involved the spirit of contention always seems to come here.

I think that the 12th Article of Faith makes it clear that we are supposed to follow the law. If a law is unjust we should try to change it through involvement in the government. However, there is some scriptural and historical support for disobeying laws while still being righteous. For example, Daniel 6 tells the story of Daniel who knowingly disobeyed the law to not pray to anyone but the king. Church history has episodes of people disobeying laws including things like Joseph escaping from Liberty Jail and avoiding getting taken back there for trial. Also, many Chruch leaders and members practiced polygamy despite it being illegal. The American patriots who started America disobeyed the British laws that led to the Revolution.

I'm just talking about this hypothetically because I don't really have an opinion on the immigration and border issues and have not studied it very much.

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What about the Story of Ammon and the land of Jershon. This seems to be a clear example of the Lord directing a group of people to leave one country and migrate to another:

Alma 27
11And it came to pass that Ammon went and inquired of the Lord, and the Lord said unto him:

12Get this people aout of this land, that they perish not; for Satan has great hold on the hearts of the Amalekites, who do stir up the Lamanites to anger against their brethren to slay them; therefore get thee out of this land; and blessed are this people in this generation, for I will bpreserve them.

14And they gathered together all their people, yea, all the people of the Lord, and did gather together all their flocks and herds, and departed out of the land, and came into the wilderness which divided the land of Nephi from the land of Zarahemla, and came over near the borders of the land.

15And it came to pass that Ammon said unto them: Behold, I and my brethren will go forth into the land of Zarahemla, and ye shall remain here until we return; and we will atry the hearts of our brethren, whether they will that ye shall come into their land.

....

20And now it came to pass that Alma conducted his brethren back to the land of Zarahemla; even to his aown house. And they went and told the bchief judge all the things that had happened unto them in the land of Nephi, among their brethren, the Lamanites.

21And it came to pass that the chief judge sent a proclamation throughout all the land, desiring the voice of the people concerning the admitting their brethren, who were the people of aAnti-Nephi-Lehi.

22And it came to pass that the voice of the people came, saying: Behold, we will give up the aland of bJershon, which is on the east by the sea, which joins the land Bountiful, which is on the south of the land Bountiful; and this land Jershon is the land which we will give unto our brethren for an inheritance.

23And behold, we will set our armies between the land Jershon and the land Nephi, that we may aprotect our brethren in the land Jershon; and this we do for our brethren, on account of their fear to take up arms against their brethren lest they should commit sin; and this their great fear came because of their sore repentance which they had, on account of their many murders and their awful wickedness.

24And now behold, this will we do unto our brethren, that they may inherit the land Jershon; and we will guard them from their enemies with our armies, on condition that they will give us a aportion of their substance to assist us that we may maintain our armies.

Notice how the people in the destination country still had a chance to vote and approve of it. Also notice that the immigrants were required to work and help sustain the Nephites as a condition of allowing them in? The current situation with illegal immigrants entering the United States (as well as those entering Western Europe) is unlike this Book of Mormon story, which is a story of LEGAL immigration. Illegal immigrants don't respect all of the laws of the land they're moving to. Plus, many take advantage of government welfare programs designed to help needy Citizens.

There is also a brutal criminal element associated with illegal immigration (the Cartels which smuggle drugs and people and some of the street gangs that attract illegal and first generation children) whose actions remind me a great deal of the Gadianton robber stories from the Book of Mormon.

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