Does our doctrine have a slight hint of Calvinism?

[MattF]

The phrase "soften his/her heart" is thrown around a lot in my ward with regards to stubborn investigators (you know, the ones who take the lessons and are in church every Sunday but won't make a commitment to get baptized) or on splits we pray for people's hearts to be softened so that they will accept the Gospel. But clearly God doesn't always do so and in fact there are people who never will believe.

So does this mean that our free agency to choose Christ is in fact not as free as we think? A hard-hearted person will never accept the Gospel, correct? Are they unable and unwilling as the Calvinist suggests the sinner is? So the only way for anyone to even consider becoming a church member is for Heavenly Father to directly intervene and change the person's heart which at least allows that person to choose (which giving that person a choice actually sounds more Arminian).

What about the person whose heart never softens? Does this mean they can't choose Christ and does this mean they are rejected from ever achieving Celestial Glory. I realize this doesn't mean that God won't soften their hearts in the Spirit World but then again some still won't.

[Rob Osborn]

The phrase "soften his/her heart" is thrown around a lot in my ward with regards to stubborn investigators (you know, the ones who take the lessons and are in church every Sunday but won't make a commitment to get baptized) or on splits we pray for people's hearts to be softened so that they will accept the Gospel. But clearly God doesn't always do so and in fact there are people who never will believe.

So does this mean that our free agency to choose Christ is in fact not as free as we think? A hard-hearted person will never accept the Gospel, correct? Are they unable and unwilling as the Calvinist suggests the sinner is? So the only way for anyone to even consider becoming a church member is for Heavenly Father to directly intervene and change the person's heart which at least allows that person to choose (which giving that person a choice actually sounds more Arminian).

What about the person whose heart never softens? Does this mean they can't choose Christ and does this mean they are rejected from ever achieving Celestial Glory. I realize this doesn't mean that God won't soften their hearts in the Spirit World but then again some still won't.

A persons ability to change is often decided by the circumstances that come about. I have seen change come after decades of work while with others its on a moment. The view or idea that they will "never believe" is an approach that sadly is felt by a large part of LDS. This of course is not how the Lord thinks or believes. I am sure that there a few future sons of perdition who may never believe but for the most part, the entirety of the human race will come to believe through some matter of circumstance either in this life or the next. So, all we can do is continue to work and pray for their hearts to be softened and for our own hearts to be softened towards them. Eventually the truth will dawn on them and they too will be converted.

[changed]

The phrase "soften his/her heart" is thrown around a lot in my ward with regards to stubborn investigators (you know, the ones who take the lessons and are in church every Sunday but won't make a commitment to get baptized) or on splits we pray for people's hearts to be softened so that they will accept the Gospel. But clearly God doesn't always do so and in fact there are people who never will believe.

So does this mean that our free agency to choose Christ is in fact not as free as we think? A hard-hearted person will never accept the Gospel, correct? Are they unable and unwilling as the Calvinist suggests the sinner is? So the only way for anyone to even consider becoming a church member is for Heavenly Father to directly intervene and change the person's heart which at least allows that person to choose (which giving that person a choice actually sounds more Arminian).

What about the person whose heart never softens? Does this mean they can't choose Christ and does this mean they are rejected from ever achieving Celestial Glory. I realize this doesn't mean that God won't soften their hearts in the Spirit World but then again some still won't.

I've thought that too - although unlike Calvinists we believe that God did not create us to have a hard or soft heart - we are who we are, not because that is the way God made us, just because that is who we are.

(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 93:29)

29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

perhaps we are trapped by our eternally existing nature, but we are not trapped by God - we are trapped by ourselves. Everyone is given a chance to progress, God opens up doors for those whose nature allows them to go forward.

A persons ability to change is often decided by the circumstances that come about...

if time does not really exist....

(Book of Mormon | Alma 40:8 )...all is as one day with God, and time only is measured unto men.

then change is impossible - no before/after without time...

then what we experience as time is perhaps just seeing ourselves from a different angle - like looking at all the different sides of a cube - the cube stays the same, you just see different sides of it as you walk around in time - in which case we are who we are, unchanging like God - just seeing different sides of ourselves...

[CV75]

The phrase "soften his/her heart" is thrown around a lot

Many people join and not join the Church irrespetive of whether they have a hard heart or a soft heart. Many things other than God's direct action can interfere with their decision or their ability to make one.

So does this mean that our free agency to choose Christ is in fact not as free as we think? No.

A hard-hearted person will never accept the Gospel, correct? No, they always have the option respond to the Light of Christ and become a soft-hearted person.

Are they unable and unwilling as the Calvinist suggests the sinner is? No, because Christ draws all men to Him through the Redemption and enables their faith, repentance and forgiveness. The natural (hard-hearted) man is an enemy to God and so can do nothing without Him, until he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, indicating the choice to have a soft heart is ultimately his (see Mosiah 3:19).

So the only way for anyone to even consider becoming a church member is for Heavenly Father to directly intervene and change the person's heart Yes, (assuming they are not making the decision on a non-spiritual basis) but this is a matter of responding the Lord's invitation to do this. He constantly reaches out and beckons us to chose Him (2 Nephi 26 33).

What about the person whose heart never softens? They did not choose Christ.

[Palerider]

There is a third possibility that I know most LDS don't want to look at and that is possibly the investigator is just not going to choose your franchise on the Christian religion. From your paradigm there is no other real choice but the fact is there are other choices and it's somewhat narrow and judgemental to be condemning someone who wants to look at other possibilities or sees anomilies in the LDS faith.

[changed]

...the only way for anyone to even consider becoming a church member is for Heavenly Father to directly intervene and change the person's heart ...

(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 46:13 - 14)

13 To some it is given by the Holy Ghost to know that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and that he was crucified for the sins of the world.

14 To others it is given to believe on their words

it seems some are strong enough that they can believe without having to experience a direct manifestation... perhaps HF only has to directly intervene on the hard cases?

then there are those who after seeing - still do not believe no matter what HF does... because of their nature? some people can escape their nature and change, others cannot... why are some unable to change?

[changed]

From your paradigm there is no other real choice ...

I think there might be some other "sheep" out there that are not of the LDS fold

(Book of Mormon | 2 Nephi 29:7 - 14)

7 Know ye not that there are more nations than one? Know ye not that I, the Lord your God, have created all men, and that I remember those who are upon the isles of the sea; and that I rule in the heavens above and in the earth beneath; and I bring forth my word unto the children of men, yea, even upon all the nations of the earth?

8 Wherefore murmur ye, because that ye shall receive more of my word? Know ye not that the testimony of two nations is a witness unto you that I am God, that I remember one nation like unto another? Wherefore, I speak the same words unto one nation like unto another. And when the two nations shall run together the testimony of the two nations shall run together also.

9 And I do this that I may prove unto many that I am the same yesterday, today, and forever; and that I speak forth my words according to mine own pleasure. And because that I have spoken one word ye need not suppose that I cannot speak another; for my work is not yet finished; neither shall it be until the end of man, neither from that time henceforth and forever.

10 Wherefore, because that ye have a Bible ye need not suppose that it contains all my words; neither need ye suppose that I have not caused more to be written.

11 For I command all men, both in the east and in the west, and in the north, and in the south, and in the islands of the sea, that they shall write the words which I speak unto them; for out of the books which shall be written I will judge the world, every man according to their works, according to that which is written.

12 For behold, I shall speak unto the Jews and they shall write it; and I shall also speak unto the Nephites and they shall write it; and I shall also speak unto the other tribes of the house of Israel, which I have led away, and they shall write it; and I shall also speak unto all nations of the earth and they shall write it.

13 And it shall come to pass that the Jews shall have the words of the Nephites, and the Nephites shall have the words of the Jews; and the Nephites and the Jews shall have the words of the lost tribes of Israel; and the lost tribes of Israel shall have the words of the Nephites and the Jews.

14 And it shall come to pass that my people, which are of the house of Israel, shall be gathered home unto the lands of their possessions; and my word also shall be gathered in cone. And I will show unto them that fight against my word and against my people, who are of the house of Israel, that I am God, and that I covenanted with Abraham that I would remember his seed forever.

different people/tribes seem to be gathered into different places... I've been called into the "Mormon" tribe, others are called to other tribes.

one day, we will learn who the lost tribes are... I have high hopes that we will soon find out that we are all His sheep.

[Palerider]

I think there might be some other "sheep" out there that are not of the LDS fold

(Book of Mormon | 2 Nephi 29:7 - 14)

7 Know ye not that there are more nations than one? Know ye not that I, the Lord your God, have created all men, and that I remember those who are upon the isles of the sea; and that I rule in the heavens above and in the earth beneath; and I bring forth my word unto the children of men, yea, even upon all the nations of the earth?

8 Wherefore murmur ye, because that ye shall receive more of my word? Know ye not that the testimony of two nations is a witness unto you that I am God, that I remember one nation like unto another? Wherefore, I speak the same words unto one nation like unto another. And when the two nations shall run together the testimony of the two nations shall run together also.

9 And I do this that I may prove unto many that I am the same yesterday, today, and forever; and that I speak forth my words according to mine own pleasure. And because that I have spoken one word ye need not suppose that I cannot speak another; for my work is not yet finished; neither shall it be until the end of man, neither from that time henceforth and forever.

10 Wherefore, because that ye have a Bible ye need not suppose that it contains all my words; neither need ye suppose that I have not caused more to be written.

11 For I command all men, both in the east and in the west, and in the north, and in the south, and in the islands of the sea, that they shall write the words which I speak unto them; for out of the books which shall be written I will judge the world, every man according to their works, according to that which is written.

12 For behold, I shall speak unto the Jews and they shall write it; and I shall also speak unto the Nephites and they shall write it; and I shall also speak unto the other tribes of the house of Israel, which I have led away, and they shall write it; and I shall also speak unto all nations of the earth and they shall write it.

13 And it shall come to pass that the Jews shall have the words of the Nephites, and the Nephites shall have the words of the Jews; and the Nephites and the Jews shall have the words of the lost tribes of Israel; and the lost tribes of Israel shall have the words of the Nephites and the Jews.

14 And it shall come to pass that my people, which are of the house of Israel, shall be gathered home unto the lands of their possessions; and my word also shall be gathered in cone. And I will show unto them that fight against my word and against my people, who are of the house of Israel, that I am God, and that I covenanted with Abraham that I would remember his seed forever.

different people/tribes seem to be gathered into different places... I've been called into the "Mormon" tribe, others are called to other tribes.

one day, we will learn who the lost tribes are... I have high hopes that we will soon find out that we are all His sheep.

I think I mostly agree, although I believe Joseph professed that the lines you have in bold actually refer to the lost ten tribes that are still in a defined group, but hidden and living on the earth somewhere with their own prophets and scriptures. Somewhere near or at the second coming they are to be revealed and led down from the "lands of the north" as I recall. Is that how you remember that scenario? (Don't mean to derail the thread here)

[changed]

I think I mostly agree although I believe Joseph professed that the lines you have in bold actually refer to the lost ten tribes that are still in a defined group, but hidden and living on the earth somewhere with their own prophets and scriptures. Somewhere near or at the second coming they are to be revealed and led down from the "lands of the north" as I recall. Is that how you remember that scenario? (Don't mean to derail the thread here)

whoever they are, it would be a trip if their scriptures / prophet happened to be the Mohamed/ Koran, or the Bhagavad Gita or the...

Matthew 10:39 - [H]e that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

The Bhagavad Gita

[Palerider]

whoever they are, it would be a trip if their scriptures / prophet happened to be the Mohamed/ Koran, or the Bhagavad Gita or the...

http://mormonmatters...sts-vice-versa/

God speaks to everyone

http://www.columbia..../abolition4.htm

Great contrast and comparison of writings!

Personally I believe the 10 tribes are truly mixed and lost among the gentiles in all parts of the earth (some parts more than others) and that when Christian/Israel returns to Zion (in Jerusalem) they will bring them along with them as they recognize truth and Christ's Messiahship.

[LifeOnaPlate]

There's really no sense in saying a "hint of Calvinism," IMO. Calvinism seems to posit an all-encompassing sovereignty of God, no ifs and or buts. I've been unconvinced and unimpressed by attempts to maintain some sense of meaning to human free will in Calvinism (like John Piper's stuff). Your question involves the extent to which God can impact our decisions, whereas that question is completely settled for Calvinists as being 100% no exceptions.

[nicolasconnault]

The phrase "soften his/her heart" is thrown around a lot in my ward with regards to stubborn investigators (you know, the ones who take the lessons and are in church every Sunday but won't make a commitment to get baptized) or on splits we pray for people's hearts to be softened so that they will accept the Gospel. But clearly God doesn't always do so and in fact there are people who never will believe.

So does this mean that our free agency to choose Christ is in fact not as free as we think? A hard-hearted person will never accept the Gospel, correct? Are they unable and unwilling as the Calvinist suggests the sinner is? So the only way for anyone to even consider becoming a church member is for Heavenly Father to directly intervene and change the person's heart which at least allows that person to choose (which giving that person a choice actually sounds more Arminian).

What about the person whose heart never softens? Does this mean they can't choose Christ and does this mean they are rejected from ever achieving Celestial Glory. I realize this doesn't mean that God won't soften their hearts in the Spirit World but then again some still won't.

We don't ask the Lord to "soften people's hearts" to deprive them of their agency or to change God's mind. Instead, we do it because we don't know their heart, thoughts, circumstances and likelihood to change. We leave this large part of unknown to the Lord, who grants blessings that are conditional on our asking for them. It's possible that Alma the Younger would have never changed his ways, had his father not prayed and fasted mightily for his heart to be softened.

Praying for others is also an important way to focus our minds on the needs of others instead of our own. It helps us see opportunities to become the "softening agent" in their lives. It also demonstrates our faith that God can help people change their hearts through the Holy Ghost, once they have started to desire to change (see Alma 22 for an example).

[3DOP]

The phrase "soften his/her heart" is thrown around a lot in my ward with regards to stubborn investigators (you know, the ones who take the lessons and are in church every Sunday but won't make a commitment to get baptized) or on splits we pray for people's hearts to be softened so that they will accept the Gospel. But clearly God doesn't always do so and in fact there are people who never will believe.

So does this mean that our free agency to choose Christ is in fact not as free as we think? A hard-hearted person will never accept the Gospel, correct? Are they unable and unwilling as the Calvinist suggests the sinner is? So the only way for anyone to even consider becoming a church member is for Heavenly Father to directly intervene and change the person's heart which at least allows that person to choose (which giving that person a choice actually sounds more Arminian).

What about the person whose heart never softens? Does this mean they can't choose Christ and does this mean they are rejected from ever achieving Celestial Glory. I realize this doesn't mean that God won't soften their hearts in the Spirit World but then again some still won't.

Do you think Calvinists are wrong about everything? From the perspective of one who believes he has the whole truth, perhaps it might be important to observe that all false teachings have a "slight hint" of truth. That would be unless one believed that a particular false teacher, Calvin in this instance, was considered to be wrong about everything. The danger of overreaction against Calvin's teaching diminishing free will, would be to take a position that diminished the necessity of God's part in salvation, that by God's grace without violating free will, God does soften the hearts of man such that they are able to receive the Gospel. You don't want to run as far away as you can from every false teaching. You want to run away only as far as you should. To avoid error, we do not need to believe its opposite. The opposite of error is not necessarily truth and that is because every error has some truth mixed into it that must be retained.

[paulhadik]

(don't enter this discussion paul!!)

but i want to

(dont do it!!! don't!!!)

sigh

anyway, some of us find comfort in knowing that salvation is in the hands of God and not reliant on our ability to persuade or speak or other's ability to understand.

and by the way, i see a lot of Calvinism in LDS theology. The idea of God's Sovereignty is the only explanation for His retracting His Spirit for 1400 years, His choosing Joseph Smith to restore the Gospel...or is that off topic?

whoops

[CV75]

perhaps HF only has to directly intervene on the hard cases?

then there are those who after seeing - still do not believe no matter what HF does... because of their nature? some people can escape their nature and change, others cannot... why are some unable to change?

I think by virtue of the Redemption, Christ intervenes for everyone, and it is an individual choice to accept Him because everyone is able to change upon "hearing the word" (however many times that takes) but some choose not to. And some apparently don't change fast enough for others' liking, but we're not supposed to judge that way. I believe He gives us all what we need, whatever that might be, to come unto Him. Each of us can account for the choices we make, whether they lead to knowledge by the Holy Ghost or belief or the lack of either, but we cannot really account for another.