Did Christ suffer for all?

[Bsix]

In another thread, it was suggested that LDS doctrine holds that Jesus Christ suffered and atoned only for those who would accept his Gospel.

"...my life-long study of the standard works gives me good reasons to believe in a Saviour who suffered for those who would believe on His name."

and

"... the Saviour atoned only for those who would repent."

I submit that the scope and universiality of the suffering and atonement of Jesus Christ in LDS theology is that he did so for every sin ever committed and for very sinner who ever lived...without exception.

However, the application of the atonement is less than universal.

1. All will be resurrected regardless of repentance or acceptance of Jesus Christ. (A result of the atonement.)

2. Virtually all will be saved in some level of heaven...even without accepting Jesus Christ.

3. A tiny, tiny few will be cast into outer darkenss as the Sons of Perdition.

4. Those who fully accept the Gospel, receive the fulness of the atonement, and become perfect through Jesus Christ become sanctified and inherit the highest of the Kingdom of God -- the Celestial Kingdom.

As compared to Reformist Protestantism which holds to a literal 'Limited' atonement...that Jesus only suffered for those who are predestined to election.

Any thoughts or opinions?

Six

[mercyngrace]

Two words: infinite and eternal

Wait...

Three more words: even all mankind

[ElfLord]

I think number 2 has a problem. Since every knee shall bow and confess Jesus.

When he's sitting there and calls them out of the grave what are they going to say... that he didn't do it?

[Log]

I'm very curious to see B6's explanation of what, exactly, the Atonement accomplished, and how it did so; in other words, why was it necessary for Jesus to suffer, bleed, and die?

[USU78]

D&C 19:16 -- For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent

D&C 18:11 -- For, behold, the Lord your Redeemer suffered death in the flesh; wherefore he suffered the pain of all men, that all men might repent and come unto him

[Duncan]

it seems that Christ lived and died for everyone but not everyone will repent and take advantage of what he offers

[jadams_4242]

it seems that Christ lived and died for everyone but not everyone will repent and take advantage of what he offers

thats correct all will go to heaven. 'BUT THEN" judgement occurs; the non repentant will be cast out... we need not l.d.s scripture alone to prove this; its all over the bible.

[ElfLord]

Right you are...

1 John 2:2

And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

For whom did Christ die?

Romans 5:6

6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.

8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Hmmm if we were reconciled to God when we were enemies. That would mean that Christs death reconciled the entire human race to God. And isn't that exactly what Paul says the Atonement did?

11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned.

...

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

[LDSToronto]

I submit that the scope and universiality of the suffering and atonement of Jesus Christ in LDS theology is that he did so for every sin ever committed and for very sinner who ever lived...without exception.

However, the application of the atonement is less than universal.

1. All will be resurrected regardless of repentance or acceptance of Jesus Christ. (A result of the atonement.)

2. Virtually all will be saved in some level of heaven...even without accepting Jesus Christ.

3. A tiny, tiny few will be cast into outer darkenss as the Sons of Perdition.

4. Those who fully accept the Gospel, receive the fulness of the atonement, and become perfect through Jesus Christ become sanctified and inherit the highest of the Kingdom of God -- the Celestial Kingdom.

As compared to Reformist Protestantism which holds to a literal 'Limited' atonement...that Jesus only suffered for those who are predestined to election.

Any thoughts or opinions?

Well, there is this scripture, found in D&C 19:16-17:

For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent; But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I;

This can be interpreted to mean that the atonement is only available to the repentant, and that those who do not repent have to atone for their own sins, thus negating the universal nature of the atonement. On the other hand, it could also mean that the atonement made universal repentance accessible, and that any who claim repentance also claim the atonement. There is also another way to look at it - the atonement is universal, and those who don't repent will have access to it, but only after they have been punished.

I don't like the third interpretation because it seems to run contrary to a loving God; it punishes a temporal act with what seems to be infinite pain and suffering (the atonement is described as such). I'm not fond of the first interpretation, as I think it's quite impossible to die in a state where one has fully repented of their sins (save little children and all the usual exceptions). And the second interpretation is not much better, since it is not much better than the third option (temporal sin, infinite pain and suffering).

So, I dunno. All I know is that D&C 19:16-17 opens the door a bit.

H.

[TAO]

Atonement and forgiveness is available to all, and all sin has been paid for by Christ, to give all the chance to atone if they wish. Yet not all will choose that path, and so they will have to suffer for their own sins, and Christ's sacrifice will be of no use, in terms of them. He's still willing to do it though.

[LDSToronto]

Atonement and forgiveness is available to all, and all sin has been paid for by Christ, to give all the chance to atone if they wish. Yet not all will choose that path, and so they will have to suffer for their own sins, and Christ's sacrifice will be of no use, in terms of them. He's still willing to do it though.

This statement seems problematic in that it suggests that the atonement is not universal; suffering for one's own sins suggests that Christ did not suffer for you.

I would suggest that an infinite atonement is impossible to reject, and that no individual suffering is required. I would also suggest that the atonement can be infinitely complicated and that I don't fully understand it

H.

[nicolasconnault]

I did a study on this a while ago, I just need to find my notes. In essence, it boils down to this question: did the Saviour suffer for the sins of the sons of perdition (the only ones who will not ultimately repent)?

[LDSToronto]

I did a study on this a while ago, I just need to find my notes. In essence, it boils down to this question: did the Saviour suffer for the sins of the sons of perdition (the only ones who will not ultimately repent)?

Interesting... First, I'd suggest that the Sons of Perdition can not repent, not so much 'will not'. As for whether the Saviour suffered for their sins, I have to think on that one.

But it does cast a new light on D&C 19:16-17 - when one suffers for their own sins, is that repentance? I'd say it's not, it's simply paying the price for your own sins, and that price is the exact same price that the Saviour paid for everyone's sins. But it's not repentance. Unless the suffering forces repentance, in which case it kind of brings up some interesting agency-related questions.

H.

EDIT: One more thing... if the Sons of Perdition are not covered by the atonement, by my count, that's a few short of infinite coverage, both in terms of population coverage and spectrum of sin coverage.

[ElfLord]

This statement seems problematic in that it suggests that the atonement is not universal; suffering for one's own sins suggests that Christ did not suffer for you.

I would suggest that an infinite atonement is impossible to reject, and that no individual suffering is required. I would also suggest that the atonement can be infinitely complicated and that I don't fully understand it

H.

I don't... repentance is a key... otherwise you trample over the blood of Christ, and suffer for your own sins, becuase you don't esteem the sacrifice that was given.

Heb 10

16This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

17And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

18Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

19Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,

20By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;

21And having an high priest over the house of God;

22Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

23Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)

24And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:

25Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

28He that despised Moses

[TAO]

This statement seems problematic in that it suggests that the atonement is not universal; suffering for one's own sins suggests that Christ did not suffer for you.

I would suggest that an infinite atonement is impossible to reject, and that no individual suffering is required. I would also suggest that the atonement can be infinitely complicated and that I don't fully understand it

H.

Na, no, it is universal... it's just, if you don't repent, you'll have to suffer for your own sins in addition to Christ having suffered for them in Gethsemane, as far as I know.

[LDSToronto]

I don't... repentance is a key... otherwise you trample over the blood of Christ, and suffer for your own sins, becuase you don't esteem the sacrifice that was given.

Sure, but that still makes it less than infinite by some counts - if I can suffer for my own sins, why do I need an atonement? Sure, I will avoid pain and suffering, pain and suffering which seems to be oddly balanced (I mean, would I beat my son to within an inch of his life for breaking curfew? No? Well that's what this pain and suffering implies that God will do to me if I fail to repent...), but ultimately, I still atone for my own sins, don't I, if I fail to repent? And then I gain my reward.

Soooooooo.... Where does that leave the atonement? Less than infinite, less than universal.

H.

PS. I don't completely believe this, but the scriptures (D&C 19:16-17) introduce some ambiguity to the notion of 'infinite' atonement.

[LDSToronto]

Na, no, it is universal... it's just, if you don't repent, you'll have to suffer for your own sins in addition to Christ having suffered for them in Gethsemane, as far as I know.

Ya, but... isn't that a really hefty price tag? I mean, I will have to suffer even as Christ suffered! Doesn't that seem unbalanced to anyone? I mean, let's suppose I was moderately 'bad' - I didn't do all my hometeaching, didn't open my mouth to spread the gospel, occasionally looked at porn, and maybe swore a bit more than an LDS person ought to... for all those fairly minor things, I'm going to take an infinitely painful thrashing, inflicted by God. It's a lot like beating the tar out of my son for lying to me (and we all know that is wrong)....

So, how do we even out this perspective?

H.

[TAO]

Ya, but... isn't that a really hefty price tag? I mean, I will have to suffer even as Christ suffered! Doesn't that seem unbalanced to anyone? I mean, let's suppose I was moderately 'bad' - I didn't do all my hometeaching, didn't open my mouth to spread the gospel, occasionally looked at porn, and maybe swore a bit more than an LDS person ought to... for all those fairly minor things, I'm going to take an infinitely painful thrashing, inflicted by God. It's a lot like beating the tar out of my son for lying to me (and we all know that is wrong)....

So, how do we even out this perspective?

H.

Your going to take the same thrashing Christ took for you - not the amount given for other people. In other words, both you and Christ will have suffered in the end for those crimes you did, if you do not repent.

Hmmm... I fell like I'm missing something here... I'll figure it out later.

[Log]

Ya, but... isn't that a really hefty price tag? I mean, I will have to suffer even as Christ suffered! Doesn't that seem unbalanced to anyone? I mean, let's suppose I was moderately 'bad' - I didn't do all my hometeaching, didn't open my mouth to spread the gospel, occasionally looked at porn, and maybe swore a bit more than an LDS person ought to... for all those fairly minor things, I'm going to take an infinitely painful thrashing, inflicted by God. It's a lot like beating the tar out of my son for lying to me (and we all know that is wrong)....

So, how do we even out this perspective?

H.

You entered into a covenant and accepted the penalty for failing to keep up your end. You were warned - there exists exactly one punishment for sin, and that is death; the kind of death Christ suffered for all that we might not suffer it if we would repent.

[LDSToronto]

You entered into a covenant and accepted the penalty for failing to keep up your end. You were warned - there exists exactly one punishment for sin, and that is death; the kind of death Christ suffered for all that we might not suffer it if we would repent.

Really? Where was my warning? And, aren't we all going to pretty much fall short? Aren't we all going to die in sin? Aren't we all going to take an infinite beating?

H.

[LDSToronto]

Your going to take the same thrashing Christ took for you - not the amount given for other people. In other words, both you and Christ will have suffered in the end for those crimes you did, if you do not repent.

Hmmm... I fell like I'm missing something here... I'll figure it out later.

Oh, but wait, that's not what the scriptures say, read again:

For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent; But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I; Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit

[ElfLord]

We might want to add this to the record...

2 Corinthians 5

10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

The Ministry of Reconciliation

11 Since, then, we know what it is to fear the Lord, we try to persuade others. What we are is plain to God, and I hope it is also plain to your conscience. 12 We are not trying to commend ourselves to you again, but are giving you an opportunity to take pride in us, so that you can answer those who take pride in what is seen rather than in what is in the heart. 13 If we are

[awesome0]

If the atonement is infinite than he suffered sufficiently to cover the sins for any who chooses to repent than any individuals sins do not contribute to the nature or magnitute of his suffering. Take any finite number and add it to infinity, and what do you get, infinity. Take any positive number and subtract it from infinity and you get infinity. Thus with an infinite atonement, any of our sins neither contribute to nor take away from the atonement.

Thus by suffering for all of with an infinite atonement, he didn't have to suffer for any individual. Thus in some ways he suffered for all us (infinite), and none of us (our individuals sins don't affect infinity).

[nicolasconnault]

This topic interests me more and more. Let's have some points here:

1. Christ's atonement is both retroactive (covers past sins) and proactive (covers future sins)
2. If the suffering is the sum of the suffering for each individual sin, then each individual sin must be foreknown (problem of God's omniscience discussed currently in another thread)
3. If 2 is not true, let's assume that the suffering of Christ was not limited by any bounds, but was actually "infinite" in intensity as much as it was infinite in universality
4. If 3 is true, then the whole question of whether or not Christ suffered for the sons of perdition is moot: Christ performed the atonement, period. It satisfies all the requirements of the plan of salvation regardless of who repents.
5. If neither 2 nor 3 are true, then we must look for another way to understand the suffering part of the atonement

The problem I have with points 3 and 4 is that they somewhat dispel my idea of a Saviour who was thinking of me at some stage of this atonement experience. It seems to make the atonement less personal and more global. I'm not very comfortable with that concept.

[nicolasconnault]

Oh, but wait, that's not what the scriptures say, read again:

For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent; But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I; Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit