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jskains

God, Jehovah vs Jesus, Jehovah

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So the JW's came over to our house today and went on about how wrong Mormons are for using Jehovah as Jesus. They claim that the LORD equals Jehovah in the KJV and that Jehovah is use by Jesus to refer to His Father. What is a good response to this challenge?? I Googled it and did not find any good sources.

Thanks,

JMS

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Just Love them !:P . In His Debt/Grace

Anakin 7

LDS JEDI KNIGHT

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So the JW's came over to our house today and went on about how wrong Mormons are for using Jehovah as Jesus. They claim that the LORD equals Jehovah in the KJV and that Jehovah is use by Jesus to refer to His Father. What is a good response to this challenge?? I Googled it and did not find any good sources.

Thanks,

JMS

Well in the first place why are they set on demeaning l.d.s knowledge? why canott they stand on there own beleifs to represent there church instead of trying to tear down ours. then the second issue BEFORE you can ligitamately debate this issue is get to wheather or not we both agree on jesus God relationship... do they beleive jesus is God in a differant manifestation? if so then you have a long road to hoe before you can get close to jehovah as Christ. :P

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Well in the first place why are they set on demeaning l.d.s knowledge? why canott they stand on there own beleifs to represent there church instead of trying to tear down ours. then the second issue BEFORE you can ligitamately debate this issue is get to wheather or not we both agree on jesus God relationship... do they beleive jesus is God in a differant manifestation? if so then you have a long road to hoe before you can get close to jehovah as Christ. :P

For decades their belief practices involved tearing into the faiths of others, particularly Catholicism. (I could comment upon the LDS missionary approach to other religions as well in times past, but I'll leave that for now.) I'm not saying there is anything in particular wrong with that, as Jesus wasn't at all sympathetic to heterodoxy.

But, Mr. Skains, exactly where do they say Jesus referred to the Father by the name Jehovah? That isn't in the NT.

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It wasn't until the late 1800's-early 1900's that the idea of Jehovah=Jesus came into fashion in the LDS Church. Fundamentalist Mormons still don't hod to the Jehovah=Jesus teaching of modern LDSism.

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So the JW's came over to our house today and went on about how wrong Mormons are for using Jehovah as Jesus. They claim that the LORD equals Jehovah in the KJV and that Jehovah is use by Jesus to refer to His Father. What is a good response to this challenge?? I Googled it and did not find any good sources.

Thanks,

JMS

Jehovah can refer to either one depending on context. And the JWs were correct that the KJV translation uses LORD (Caps or small caps) for YHVH in the MT.

See Psalm 110 where David's Lord (Adon - referring to the Messiah) will sit at the right hand of the LORD (Jehovah). I suspect that this is the reference they are referring to in the NT as Jesus quotes it in 3 of the four gospels showing that the Messiah is more than just a descendant of David.

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So the JW's came over to our house today and went on about how wrong Mormons are for using Jehovah as Jesus. They claim that the LORD equals Jehovah in the KJV and that Jehovah is use by Jesus to refer to His Father. What is a good response to this challenge?? I Googled it and did not find any good sources.

Thanks,

JMS

Hi JMS, coolrok7 here. I've studied with them for years (they oppose the Trinity too). They have a concern that people hold to true Biblical teaching (according to Charles Taze Russell (much like Joseph Smith is to Mormons):

God made Aaron to be mouthpiece for the children of Israel, and He will make me be god to you in his stead, and the Elders to be mouth for me; and if you don

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The best source is Margaret Barker's book, The Great Angel: A Study of Israel's Second God. She works through chapters on The Son of God, The Exile, the Old Testament, Wisdom, Angels, the Name, Philo, Jewish writers (especially the Targums), the Gnostics, the First Christians, and with all of that to establish context, reads the New Testament. "The New Testament identified Jesus with Yahweh, the second God, but not with El Elyon, the Father."

The evidence that the first Christians identified Jesus with the God of the Jews is overwhelming; it was their customary way of reading the Old Testament. The appearances of Yahweh or the angel of Yahweh were read as manifestations of the pre-existent Christ. The Son of God was their name for Yahweh. This can be seen clearly in the writings of Paul who applied several 'Lord' texts to Jesus. . . . Now Paul, though completely at home in the Greek world, claimed to have been the strictest of Jews, educated in Jerusalem and zealous for the traditions of his people. How is it that he, of all people, could distinguish between God and Lord as he did in 1 Corinthians, if this was not already a part of first century Jewish belief? He emphasized that this distinction was fundamental to his belief: "there is one God, the Father . . . and one Lord, Jesus Christ" (1 Corinthians 8:6). This is, to say the least, a remarkable contradiction of Deuteronomy 6:4, if he understood that verse in the way that we do, as a statement of monotheism. If, on the other hand, it was a statement of the unity of Yahweh as the one inclusive summing up of all the heavenly powers, the 'elohim, then it would have been compatible with belief in God Most High also.

A good introduction to Barker's approach is this short essay.

http://www.theway.org.uk/back/431Barker.pdf

The Book of Mormon is explicit in identifying Jesus as Jehovah. For example, in 3 Nephi where Jesus says, "I am he who gave the Law." See my "Paradigms Regained" at FARMS

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/papers/?paperID=6&chapterID=50

and Brant Gardner's excellent FAIR essay here:

http://www.fairlds.org/FAIR_Conferences/2003_Monotheism_Messiah_and_Mormons_Book.html

Read Parley P. Pratt's sacrament hymn, Jesus Once of Humble Birth. "Once a meek, and lowly lamb, now the LORD, the Great I AM."

Some people still try to claim that the Book of Mormon is modalistic. Despite this essay:

The Development of the Mormon Understanding of God: Early Mormon Modalism and Other Myths by Ari D. Bruening, and David L. Paulsen. (I've read the book length version, and it is even more definitive.)

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/review/?vol=13&num=2&id=392

I find their note three particularly interesting: "Most proponents of this developmental theory make the same claims and use the same proof texts." The focus on the same proof texts demonstrates a widespread failure to be comprehensive.

Kevin Christensen

Pittsburgh, PA

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Their core argument wraps around the usage of LORD in both the old and new testaments. In one passage, Jesus uses LORD, thy God, to talk about the father, which to them, proves that Jesus referred to Heavenly Father as Jehovah, hence our interpretation is simply wrong. The KJV/bible dictionary confirms that LORD in all caps generally means Jehovah from the hebrew translations.

JMS

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Do I have this right?

1. God (Elohim) told Moses that his name was LORD (YHWY > JHVH > "Jehovah"), Exodus 6:2-3.

2. LDS believe that Jehovah, the central deity of the OT, is Jesus Christ.

3. Jesus Christ is introduced as the Son of Elohim, Mark 1:1, etc., but this should not be confused as being the son of the OT God, but the son of another Elohim.

4. Consequently, the Jehovah of Mark 2:15, etc. is not Christ, as Christ is not his own son:

... This was to fulfill what had been spoken by [Jehovah] through the prophet: "OUT OF EGYPT I CALLED MY SON."

Follow up questions:

a. Since Jesus Christ was the central OT deity, and thus receiving prayers, what necessitated that Christ instruct us to pray to his father?

b. Jeremiah 1:4-5 is cited by LDS as proof-text of man's preexistence. Yet we read it is Jehovah (v.4) who formed us.

What church material can I read that educates the layperson on this?

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Do I have this right?

No!

1. God (Elohim) told Moses that his name was LORD (YHWY > JHVH > "Jehovah"), Exodus 6:2-3.

That was the ante-mortal Christ speaking to Moses. Jesus was and is the Mediator.

2. LDS believe that Jehovah, the central deity of the OT, is Jesus Christ.

True, although the use of "Jehovah" in the Bible is inconsistent, thus causing some confusion. (If only the Bible really was "inerrant").

3. Jesus Christ is introduced as the Son of Elohim, Mark 1:1, etc., but this should not be confused as being the son of the OT God, but the son of another Elohim.

See above.

4. Consequently, the Jehovah of Mark 2:15, etc. is not Christ, as Christ is not his own son:

... This was to fulfill what had been spoken by [Jehovah] through the prophet: "OUT OF EGYPT I CALLED MY SON."

See above.

Follow up questions:

a. Since Jesus Christ was the central OT deity, and thus receiving prayers, what necessitated that Christ instruct us to pray to his father?

See above.

b. Jeremiah 1:4-5 is cited by LDS as proof-text of man's preexistence. Yet we read it is Jehovah (v.4) who formed us.

God, the Father, created everything spiritually first, then, the ante-mortal Jesus Christ created everything physically.

Not difficult to understand really.

What church material can I read that educates the layperson on this?

"Jesus the Christ" by James Talmage is a good start.

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True, although the use of "Jehovah" in the Bible is inconsistent, thus causing some confusion. (If only the Bible really was "inerrant").

So this doctrine isn't derived from the biblical texts, but imposed on it. Got it.

CFR where Jehovah is used incorrectly in Bible.

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Hi JMS, coolrok7 here. I've studied with them for years (they oppose the Trinity too). They have a concern that people hold to true Biblical teaching (according to Charles Taze Russell (much like Joseph Smith is to Mormons):

Pardon me for interrupting your one-note symphony, but you are off-topic. Josh is looking for valid responses to JW claims. This isn't an opportunity for you to flip your standard anti-Mormon note-cards in our faces.

You are also wrong. Whatever the JW's thought about Russell, they don't hold him to be a prophet, because they don't believe in prophets after biblical times. Thus, the parallel you are straining to draw is not a parallel at all.

In fact, if you want to look for a real parallel, please note that the JW's are biblicists, much like conservative Protestants, and hold the Bible in a place of pre-eminence to the extent that it precludes God from ever speaking to His children again.

IOW, their view of the Bible resembles yours far more than ours.

Regards,

Pahoran

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So this doctrine isn't derived from the biblical texts, but imposed on it. Got it.

No, you don't "Got it." Actually it is your paraphrase that is not derived from its purported source, but is imposed upon it.

In fact, since it neither summarises nor resembles anything in this thread, I rather suspect that it represents a pre-existing opinion of your own. Am I right?

CFR where Jehovah is used incorrectly in Bible.

CFR to your CFR: who actually said that "Jehovah is used incorrectly in Bible?" Vance actually said:

the use of "Jehovah" in the Bible is inconsistent

Did you only glance at that sentence -- even while you quoted it -- long enough to assume that it said what you wanted it to say?

Regards,

Pahoran

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From an LDS point of view didn't they (LDS) always just explain this as "divine investiture of authority"? I think Joseph Fielding Smith did quite a write up on that principle.

I always used 1 Corinthians 10:1- 4, which sent most of them (JW's) away puzzling to themselves.

"And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ."

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I love dealing with JW's. Yeah I know they think that Jehovah God is God the Father.

THere are only a few scriptures you need and it helps to use the NWT (which is the JW translation) when quoting the scriptures. It completely destroys their premise that Jehovah is God the Father.

Here they are.

Jesus is the savoir of the world.

Acts 4:10-12

10Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.

11This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.

12Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Hosea 13:4

4Yet I am the Lord thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for there is no saviour beside me.

1Samual 2:2

2There is none holy as the Lord: for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God.

I will quote the NWT below these.

Hosea 13:4

4

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