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Zakuska

The Apostle Paul and the Gospel of DOING.

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Paul in his scriptural exposition in his letter to the Romans sets up a very intresting Salvation formula that it seems most Christians have over looked.

You'll notice in this Chapter he quotes Heavily from Isaiah. But he also quotes, nearly in it's entirety Deuteronomy 30:11-14.

Romans 10

1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.

2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.

3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.

6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:)

7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)

8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be shamed.

12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.

20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.

21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

Heres the relevant part in Deuteronomy30:

11

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Paul in his scriptural exposition in his letter to the Romans sets up a very intresting Salvation formula that it seems most Christians have over looked.

You'll notice in this Chapter he quotes Heavily from Isaiah. But he also quotes, nearly in it's entirety Deuteronomy 30:11-14.

So in other words... Paul is hanging Salvation directly on an ACTION done by men. Pure and simply an action based salvation predicated and commanded by the Lord, the Lord did his part now we must do ours.

Everyone should read Chapter 30 of Dueteronomy in its entirety to see what exactly Paul is actually teaching and talking about. The whole Chapter is about Israel choosing the Lord and Keeping his commandments to walk in his statutes and DO righteousness. DOING righteousness is being Faithful to the Lord and what Faith really is.

I beleive the idea of DOING is why we describe ourselves as "Active" or "In-Active" Mormons.

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I beleive the idea of DOING is why we describe ourselves as "Active" or "In-Active" Mormons.

I think thats also where the Hymn... "Put your shoulder to the wheel" came from as well. Then theres the change in "I am a Child of God" from "teach me all the I must know" to "Teach me all that I must DO, to live with him some day".

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Paul in his scriptural exposition in his letter to the Romans sets up a very intresting Salvation formula that it seems most Christians have over looked.

You'll notice in this Chapter he quotes Heavily from Isaiah. But he also quotes, nearly in it's entirety Deuteronomy 30:11-14.

Romans 10

1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.

2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.

3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.

6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:)

7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)

8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be shamed.

12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.

20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.

21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

Heres the relevant part in Deuteronomy30:

11

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You make a rash and naive judgement regarding "most Christians" and their beliefs. I think those who believe that we are saved alone by confessing that Christ is the Savior and exercising only mental faith, are in the small minority. Most Christians do believe in doing good works, they just don't believe that they are salvific in and of themselves. Only Christ's atonement can do that as you well know. The LDS faith keeps hammering this issue into their members because it allows them to get more work out of their members, some of it unneccesary (how many meetings does it take?) , and gives them an unfounded feeling of superiority over other Christians. On this aspect they (leadership) should be ashamed.

Speaking of rash Judgements (I don't know about naive). I disagree with your statement about a minority of Christians believing in being saved by Faith alone. I also disagree with your statement about the motives of the leadership.

I will ask that you CFR your statements on such, or retract them.

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Speaking of rash Judgements (I don't know about naive). I disagree with your statement about a minority of Christians believing in being saved by Faith alone. I also disagree with your statement about the motives of the leadership.

I will ask that you CFR your statements on such, or retract them.

Taken from www.catholic-convert.com

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I think between Catholics and most Protestant religions in the world, you would have a majority of Christians who do believe that good works ARE important, although as I said before, "not salvific in and of themselves".

I think you understate the reality here. While this all sounds good on paper (Or computer screens as the case happens to be) in reality, the average Christian I've conversed with over the past 5 years look at works as "not salvific period." They don't even think that bad works will cause a Chistian (Some one who has made an Altar call) his/her salvation. All one needs do is look at the Grace vs Works threads on a couple boards that must remain nameless to pick up many examples of what I am talking about.

Even one of the Fathers of the reformation is quoted as saying...

" If you are a preacher of mercy, do not preach an imaginary but the true mercy. If the mercy is true, you must therefore bear the true,
not an imaginary sin
.
God
does not save those
who are only imaginary sinners
.
Be a sinner, and let your sins be strong (sin boldly),
but let your trust in Christ be stronger, and rejoice in Christ who is the victor over sin, death, and the world. We will commit sins while we are here, for this life is not a place where justice resides."

He seems to forget that Christ is coming and bringing Lady Justice with him... "And will reward everyman according to his works".

It's very true that works won't save "in and of themselves" but its also very true... that bad works or even lack of works will send you straight to hell. Thus the Lord tells his TRUE servants. Well done my Good and faithfull servant, you fed me and gave me drink when I was and thirsted.

Perhaps Luther and those Christians who disdain works so badly should sing this Psalm a little more often...

Psalm 112

1 Praise the LORD.

Blessed are those who fear the LORD,

who find great delight in his commands.

2 Their children will be mighty in the land;

the generation of the upright will be blessed.

3 Wealth and riches are in their houses,

and their righteousness endures forever.

4 Even in darkness light dawns for the upright,

for those who are gracious and compassionate and righteous.

5 Good will come to those who are generous and lend freely,

who conduct their affairs with justice.

6 Surely the righteous will never be shaken;

they will be remembered forever.

7 They will have no fear of bad news;

their hearts are steadfast, trusting in the LORD.

8 Their hearts are secure, they will have no fear;

in the end they will look in triumph on their foes.

9 They have freely scattered their gifts to the poor,

their righteousness endures forever;

their horn[c] will be lifted high in honor. 10 The wicked will see and be vexed,

they will gnash their teeth and waste away;

the longings of the wicked will come to nothing

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Now........will you retract your statement?

"I disagree with your statement about a minority of Christians believing in being saved by Faith alone."

I think not...........

Of course not, you've utterly failed to prove your point... want to try again?

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Of course not, you've utterly failed to prove your point... want to try again?

No sense in "casting pearls".....

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Abraham was a Hebrew not a Gentile. He was from the chosen seed through Noah's son Shem.

He was indeed a hebrew but since the house of Israel didn't exist at the time he would, by default have to be considered a gentile. Which gives him the unique opportunity of being spiritual father to both the Jews and the Gentiles. Great how Heavenly Father makes that work....no?

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I think you understate the reality here. While this all sounds good on paper (Or computer screens as the case happens to be) in reality, the average Christian I've conversed with over the past 5 years look at works as "not salvific period." They don't even think that bad works will cause a Chistian (Some one who has made an Altar call) his/her salvation. All one needs do is look at the Grace vs Works threads on a couple boards that must remain nameless to pick up many examples of what I am talking about.

Even one of the Fathers of the reformation is quoted as saying...

" If you are a preacher of mercy, do not preach an imaginary but the true mercy. If the mercy is true, you must therefore bear the true,
not an imaginary sin
.
God
does not save those
who are only imaginary sinners
.
Be a sinner, and let your sins be strong (sin boldly),
but let your trust in Christ be stronger, and rejoice in Christ who is the victor over sin, death, and the world. We will commit sins while we are here, for this life is not a place where justice resides."

He seems to forget that Christ is coming and bringing Lady Justice with him... "And will reward everyman according to his works".

It's very true that works won't save "in and of themselves" but its also very true... that bad works or even lack of works will send you straight to hell. Thus the Lord tells his TRUE servants. Well done my Good and faithfull servant, you fed me and gave me drink when I was and thirsted.

Perhaps Luther and those Christians who disdain works so badly should sing this Psalm a little more often...

Psalm 112

1 Praise the LORD.

Blessed are those who fear the LORD,

who find great delight in his commands.

2 Their children will be mighty in the land;

the generation of the upright will be blessed.

3 Wealth and riches are in their houses,

and their righteousness endures forever.

4 Even in darkness light dawns for the upright,

for those who are gracious and compassionate and righteous.

5 Good will come to those who are generous and lend freely,

who conduct their affairs with justice.

6 Surely the righteous will never be shaken;

they will be remembered forever.

7 They will have no fear of bad news;

their hearts are steadfast, trusting in the LORD.

8 Their hearts are secure, they will have no fear;

in the end they will look in triumph on their foes.

9 They have freely scattered their gifts to the poor,

their righteousness endures forever;

their horn[c] will be lifted high in honor. 10 The wicked will see and be vexed,

they will gnash their teeth and waste away;

the longings of the wicked will come to nothing

It's very true that works won't save "in and of themselves" but its also very true... that bad works or even lack of works will send you straight to hell. Thus the Lord tells his TRUE servants. Well done my Good and faithfull servant, you fed me and gave me drink when I was and thirsted

A saved person, a believer, walks in the Works God ordained for them before the world was made

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Christ taught "repent" which means "believe". Change your direction. Turn around and follow God

Jesus also taught "believe" for eternal life. He didn't teach works.

That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life..

Love causes obedience. Once you fall in love with Christ, you WANT to do things to please Him

We do good works the rest of our days, out of love. Not because we hope He will save us.

He already did that on the Cross.

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He was indeed a hebrew but since the house of Israel didn't exist at the time he would, by default have to be considered a gentile. Which gives him the unique opportunity of being spiritual father to both the Jews and the Gentiles. Great how Heavenly Father makes that work....no?

No Abraham was a Hebrew through the chosen lineage of Shem. The Gentile lineage came through Ham and Japeth.

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You make a rash and naive judgement regarding "most Christians" and their beliefs. I think those who believe that we are saved alone by confessing that Christ is the Savior and exercising only mental faith, are in the small minority. Most Christians do believe in doing good works, they just don't believe that they are salvific in and of themselves. Only Christ's atonement can do that as you well know. The LDS faith keeps hammering this issue into their members because it allows them to get more work out of their members, some of it unneccesary (how many meetings does it take?) , and gives them an unfounded feeling of superiority over other Christians. On this aspect they (leadership) should be ashamed.

"More work", like feeding His sheep? As He commanded us to do? Is that what you mean?

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A saved person, a believer, walks in the Works God ordained for them before the world was made

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Christ taught "repent" which means "believe". Change your direction. Turn around and follow God

Jesus also taught "believe" for eternal life. He didn't teach works.

Oh yes he did. John 21:15 - 17 "Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs. He saith to him again the second time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep. He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep."

That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life..

Love causes obedience. Once you fall in love with Christ, you WANT to do things to please Him

We do good works the rest of our days, out of love. Not because we hope He will save us.

He already did that on the Cross.

I agree. Mostly. Obedience and service out of love, rather than for a reward, is the highest motivation. I think mainstream Christianity and Mormonism actually agree here also. But for some reason, few non-LDS can see it. We believe that charity (to love as Christ loves) exceeds all.

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"More work", like feeding His sheep? As He commanded us to do? Is that what you mean?

All depends on what you're trying to feed them........

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All depends on what you're trying to feed them........

You said the LDS Church teaches the importance of works in order to get more work out of us. Okay. In a sense, yes. But at what end? When we work, or IOW serve and obey God, then who is blessed? We are. So I'm not seeing a problem here. Sounds like the Church is doing it's job.

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You said the LDS Church teaches the importance of works in order to get more work out of us. Okay. In a sense, yes. But at what end? When we work, or IOW serve and obey God, then who is blessed? We are. So I'm not seeing a problem here. Sounds like the Church is doing it's job.

"Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees...."

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Are we not to do grater works than Jesus Christ ?.

In His Debt/ Grace

Anakin7

LDS JEDI KNIGHT

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