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Rob Osborn

What was Satan's Plans at the council?

The plan of Satan- what was it?  

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  1. 1. What is/was Satan's plan he brought to the council?

    • He would save us all by forced obedience
    • He would save us all by having no consequence for sin
    • He lied about saving us all, he wouldn't save anyone.
    • Other, please explain
  2. 2. How was Satan going to destroy our agency?

    • Through forced obedience
    • Through not having any consequences of choices and thus no experience of good or evil
    • Through general sins- tempting us to sin until we were bound tight in his chains
    • Other, please explain.


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Interestes in peoples answers and why they believe this way. Please explain.

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Interestes in peoples answers and why they believe this way. Please explain.

I answered with the following:

He lied about saving us all, he wouldn't save anyone.

Through not having any consequences of choices and thus no experience of good or evil.

It is my opinion that Lucifer, "Son of the morning", could not save any of us. He wished to take away our agency, and without agency there is no choice, without choice there is no learning and growth. There is no experience. Thus we could not learn. Just as we could not learn and progress in the Garden of Eden; under the plan of Lucifer, there was no ability to progress, thereby the whole point of coming to Earth was fustrated, and pointless. Lucifer could not save us, as we never would have fallen.

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The gospel according to me (and President Monson - see the quote I posted in comment #16):

Satan never had a viable plan. He may have thought he could save us through compulsion or doing away with the consequences of sin but neither of those options can produce the necessary spiritual change required for progression. Satan did not understand the process, or to put it in scriptural terms (Moses 4, IIRC), he knew not the mind of God.

Satan intended to destroy agency through compulsion (owning oppressors and false priests), through temptation (as in the garden), and through deception. To quote myself from another discussion on another forum...

This is a really good question and obviously very relevant since so much of the BOM is dedicated to explaining how his power works and how we can undermine it.

Amulek taught that the devil has the power to seal us his.

Lehi says he has the power to captivate.

Throughout the scriptures we see he has power to tempt and deceive, often by appearing as an angel of light (Lehi).

We also know he has dominion because he has his own angels. That's in Nephi's writings.

The BOM explains that his power is to lead. He leads men astray, leads them captive, and leads them to hell.

But he only has power over us if we give it to Him. In fact, Nephi says Satan has no power at all if men are righteous.

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Satan's plan in no way involved saving us. It is my belief that his "plan", as presented, was nothing but a plot to turn Heavenly Father's children against Him. Satan would present his plan to save us all, so that none would be lost, and then cry foul to his brothers and sisters when it isn't chosen.

You see, I don't believe Satan to be an unintelligent being. Not at all.

I can't believe that Satan would be so ignorant of the divine laws as to truly think that his plan to save us all would work. He was a son of the morning for crying out loud...in authority in God's presence. The fact that such a plan would not only immediately fail but be rejected outright is a BIG red flag. It smacks anyone in the face who has an understanding of the divine laws at work in the universe.

So because I don't think Satan's an idiot, intellectually speaking, there had to be another reason, imo. Satan wanted the power and authority and glory of God, without the work and faithful sacrifice one has to make throughout a lifetime on a mortal world that is necessary. How does one gain power like unto God's, without going through everything just like Him? That way is the path of the devil, literally. Becoming a devil, tempting and manipulating others into sin, temptation, and eternal bondage. Such is the ONLY way Satan could achieve the power he wanted, without any of the work.

Just as in today's world, not everyone is aware of how things work, so I believe it to have been in the pre-mortal life. Satan concocted his plan for control very carefully, and seeded doubt and mistrust of the Father in his brothers and sisters. Obviously, a majority of us didn't go for it, and kept our first estate. However, a third part, however many that may have been, chose to rebel. Were they all duped by Satan? I don't think so..but I'm sure some were. However, when they reached that point of no return in Heaven, that is...the point where one openly rebels against God...they gave up their inheritance and were cast out.

Satan's plan was very cunning, conceived to deceive and made to tear the Father's family apart, so that he could rule over his brothers and sisters in sin and darkness. So in the end, I think Satan will get what he wants. A kingdom of his own made up of the fallen and unredeemable, the former sons and daughters of Heavenly Father. Does Satan think he can beat Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ? I think Satan believes he knows what will happen, after all..it's written in scripture. Does he comprehend the eternal torment he faces? I don't think so. I feel so sorry for him, at times, as he gave up everything for the power he didn't have to earn like Father did. Scripture says that the heavens wept over him, how far he has fallen..and I empathize with the hosts of Heaven who lost someone so dear, as I believe Lucifer was to them. However, we cannot fall victim to him. We must overcome.

Those are my thoughts on Satan's plan. :P

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Erm... Satan didn't have a plan... he offered himself up to be the Savior, but then rebelled when God chose Jesus instead.

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It should be "What were Satan's Plans at the council?" Stupid poll.

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You see, I don't believe Satan to be an unintelligent being. Not at all.

Just a thought...

I don't think you have to be unintelligent to consider the possibility of an alternative path to salvation - even Christ uttered O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me.

Satan's motives were ignoble. He sought his own glory. His pride and self-serving intent were enough alone to undermine the plan, even if he had walked through mortality sinless, made intercession in Gethsemane, given his life and risen the third day. The atonement is as much about intent as it is about physical execution of an incomprehensibly horrific act.

I don't believe Satan could see that his own impure desires disqualified him anymore than I believe Christ could fully fathom what would be required of Him until those awful moments arrived. Some knowledge can only be acquired through experience.

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Erm... Satan didn't have a plan... he offered himself up to be the Savior, but then rebelled when God chose Jesus instead.

I don't see it that way.

Satan did have a plan. It did not include us, although he did market it that way. He was a politician, fer shure.

We learn that his plan involved his usurping Father's place and (or just) His Priesthood. He promised to save all of us (although, as others have pointed out or alluded to, his program was unworkable), and that was his marketing plan.

He managed to convince three classes of people:

  • [*]Those who would be his lieutenants and peers[*]Those whose pride made them unwilling to submit to Jesus, the rightful king[*]Those who were fearful that they would not be able to follow the Gospel Plan and would in their warped view (not understanding that the Atonement would cover them

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I don't see it that way.

Satan did have a plan. It did not include us, although he did market it that way. He was a politician, fer shure.

We learn that his plan involved his usurping Father's place and (or just) His Priesthood. He promised to save all of us (although, as others have pointed out or alluded to, his program was unworkable), and that was his marketing plan.

He managed to convince three classes of people:

  • [*]Those who would be his lieutenants and peers[*]Those whose pride made them unwilling to submit to Jesus, the rightful king[*]Those who were fearful that they would not be able to follow the Gospel Plan and would in their warped view (not understanding that the Atonement would cover them

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I think this is a good summary of what happened.

MD

Who is the Author of the Plan of Salvation?

Bruce R. McConkie

of the First Council of the Seventy

The Improvement Era

May, 1953

Who created and presented the plan of salvation as it was adopted in the pre-existent councils in heaven? Did Christ offer one plan which would allow men their agency, and Lucifer sponsor another founded on compulsion?

Although we sometimes hear it said that there were two plans - Christ's plan of freedom and agency, and Lucifer's of slavery and compulsion - such teaching does not conform to the revealed word. Christ did not present a plan of redemption and salvation nor did Lucifer. There were not two plans up for consideration; there was only one; and that was the plan of the Father: originated, developed, presented, and put in force by him. Christ, however, made the Father's plan his own by his willing obedience to its terms and provisions.

A knowledge of these pre-existent events in God's heavenly kingdom will help us understand the true order of things in his earthly kingdom, the Church, and also will point a course for the wise Saint to follow in all his affairs. Briefly this is what too k place:

The Father is and was a Personage of tabernacle, a Holy Man having a body of flesh and bones. To him were born the hosts of pre-existent spirit children of whom Jehovah, or Christ, was the eldest, the firstborn. Lucifer, "a son of the morning," was among this host, as also were the spirits of all men, who have been or yet will be born on earth.

These spirits, endowed with agency and governed by law, developed a variety of talents and capacities. Some became noble and great. Lucifer attained unto a position of eminence and authority, but Christ, pre-eminent above them all, became "like unto God ".

Speaking of pre-existence, Joseph Smith said: "God himself, finding he was in the midst of spirits and glory, because he was more intelligent, saw proper to institute laws whereby the rest could have a privilege to advance like himself. (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, P. 354) These laws, the Father's plan of redemption and salvation, included, among other things, the following:

1. At the Father's command Christ and other noble and great spirits were to create this earth.

2. Then each spirit child was to be born into mortality, gain a temporal body in which to house the eternal spirit, and pass through a probationary testing to determine eventual fitness for a life of the kind the Father enjoyed.

3. Body and spirit were to be separated, temporarily, by death, the spirit going to a world of waiting spirits, and the body back to the dust of the earth.

4. The chief cornerstone of the whole plan was to be the atoning sacrifice of a Redeemer, one of the Father's spirit sons who was to be born into the world as his literal Son in the flesh. By this means was to be effected a resurrection, a reunion of body and spirit in immortality, the two never again to be separated.

5. And finally there was to be a day of judgment when a just measure would be meted to every man, and when those who fully qualified by righteousness would be raised, not only in immortality, but also unto eternal life, the kind of life which the Father himself has.

Step by step this plan was unfolded, taught, and put into operation. Thus after the earth was created, after the prospect of mortality had been announced, after the prospect of death and a resurrection were known, after the need for a Redeemer had been heralded in the courts on high, the Father spoke these very words:

"Whom shall I send?" (Abraham 3:27) That is whom shall I send to be my Son in the flesh, to suffer both body and spirit in Gethsemane while taking upon himself the sins of the world to be lifted up upon the cross, to ransom men from the fall, to be the Redeemer?

There were two volunteers, Both said, "Here am I, send me" (Abraham 3:27) But Christ, who was the first, also said: "Father thy will be done, and the glory be thine forever." (Moses 4:2) That is: I will continue to accept your plan of redemption, accept it without change or modification. And thine be the glory!

Lucifer, the second volunteer, had no such spirit of obedience. "I will be thy son," he said, "and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor." (Moses 4:1) That is: Lucifer favored the Father's plan by which the spirit children were to obtain bodies of flesh and bones, were to die, were to be resurrected. But Lucifer wanted to abandon the testing or probationary part of mortality; he wanted to take away the agency of man, forestall the need of a judgment according to works, and impose salvation upon all men without effort on their part - an impossible thing since there can be no progression except by the upward pull of obedience to law. And as a final blow: Lucifer sought to obtain as his personal reward, the very power, position, and throne of the Father himself.

The issue was squarely put. A decision must be made, and the Father (always the Father!) issued the decree: "I will send the first," (Abraham 3:27) thus choosing Christ to be the "Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." (Revelation 13:8; I Peter 1:19-20)

Then it was that "the second was angry, and kept not his first estate; and, at that day, many followed after him." (Abraham 3:28) Then it was that "a third part of the hosts of heaven" (D&C 29:36) were turned away from the father "because of their agency." (D&C 29:36) Then it was there "there was war in heaven," (Revelation 12:7) and those who were cast out became "the devil and his angels." (D&C 29:37)

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Deleted, double post.

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I think this statement is interesting. Lucifer claimed the right to be the First Born.

In regard to the battle in heaven, that Brother Truman O. Angell referred to, how much of a battle it was I have forgotten. I cannot relate the principal circumstances, it is so long since it happened; but I do not think it lasted very long;
for when Lucifer, the Son of the Morning, claimed the privilege of having the control of this earth, and redeeming it
, a contention arose; but I do not think it took long to cast down one-third of the hosts of heaven, as it is written in the Bible. But let me tell you that it was one-third part of the spirits who were prepared to take tabernacles upon this earth, and who rebelled against the other two-thirds of the heavenly host; and they were cast down to this world. It is written that they were cast down to the earth. They were cast down to this globe--to this terra firma that you and I walk upon, and whose atmosphere we breathe. One-third part of the spirits that were prepared for this earth rebelled against [page 55] Jesus Christ, and were cast down to the earth, and they have been opposed to him from that day to this, with Lucifer at their head. He is their general--Lucifer, the Son of the Morning. He was once a brilliant and influential character in heaven, and we will know more about him hereafter.

(Brigham Young, JD 5:54-55)

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Satan's plan in no way involved saving us. It is my belief that his "plan", as presented, was nothing but a plot to turn Heavenly Father's children against Him. Satan would present his plan to save us all, so that none would be lost, and then cry foul to his brothers and sisters when it isn't chosen.

You see, I don't believe Satan to be an unintelligent being. Not at all.

I can't believe that Satan would be so ignorant of the divine laws as to truly think that his plan to save us all would work. He was a son of the morning for crying out loud...in authority in God's presence. The fact that such a plan would not only immediately fail but be rejected outright is a BIG red flag. It smacks anyone in the face who has an understanding of the divine laws at work in the universe.

So because I don't think Satan's an idiot, intellectually speaking, there had to be another reason, imo. Satan wanted the power and authority and glory of God, without the work and faithful sacrifice one has to make throughout a lifetime on a mortal world that is necessary. How does one gain power like unto God's, without going through everything just like Him? That way is the path of the devil, literally. Becoming a devil, tempting and manipulating others into sin, temptation, and eternal bondage. Such is the ONLY way Satan could achieve the power he wanted, without any of the work.

Just as in today's world, not everyone is aware of how things work, so I believe it to have been in the pre-mortal life. Satan concocted his plan for control very carefully, and seeded doubt and mistrust of the Father in his brothers and sisters. Obviously, a majority of us didn't go for it, and kept our first estate. However, a third part, however many that may have been, chose to rebel. Were they all duped by Satan? I don't think so..but I'm sure some were. However, when they reached that point of no return in Heaven, that is...the point where one openly rebels against God...they gave up their inheritance and were cast out.

Satan's plan was very cunning, conceived to deceive and made to tear the Father's family apart, so that he could rule over his brothers and sisters in sin and darkness. So in the end, I think Satan will get what he wants. A kingdom of his own made up of the fallen and unredeemable, the former sons and daughters of Heavenly Father. Does Satan think he can beat Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ? I think Satan believes he knows what will happen, after all..it's written in scripture. Does he comprehend the eternal torment he faces? I don't think so. I feel so sorry for him, at times, as he gave up everything for the power he didn't have to earn like Father did. Scripture says that the heavens wept over him, how far he has fallen..and I empathize with the hosts of Heaven who lost someone so dear, as I believe Lucifer was to them. However, we cannot fall victim to him. We must overcome.

Those are my thoughts on Satan's plan. :P

Very insighful. Do you believe then that his (Satan's) secret combinations- his gadianton type of society, began before and leading up to this council?

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Some say that Lucifer just modified the Father's plan and some say that he had a different plan than the Father. I don't think it really matters how we refer to Lucifer's option. We know if was different than the Father's plan.

Lucifer sought to destroy the free agency of man and the one-third of the spirits sided with him, He sought the throne of God, and put forth his plan in boldness in that great council, declaring that he would save all, that not one soul should be lost, provided God would give him the glory and the honor. When his plan was rejected for a better one, he rebelled and said, as Isaiah states the case: "I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God, . . . I will be like the Most High."

(Joseph Fielding Smith, DS, Vol1 184)

MD

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I believe Satan's plan was that God would send him as the Son and Redeemer, and somehow not a single soul would be lost, and God would give him His honor. And then Satan rebelled and tried to take away the "agency of man" which God had given him (us?).

It's all here.

If I had been at the council, I would have suggested a plan wherein the human body is able to procreate before the age of accountability. Also, I would suggest the evolution of a virus that kills all humans before the age of accountability.

That way, everyone could be saved in the Celestial Kingdom without frustrating agency and the principles of the gospel. And since no one could sin, we wouldn't need a redeemer and all the Glory would be God's by default.

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From October's General Pristhood session:

"We know that we had our agency before this world was and that Lucifer attempted to take it from us. He had no confidence in the principle of agency or in us and argued for imposed salvation. He insisted that with his plan none would be lost, but he seemed not to recognize or perhaps not to care that in addition, none would be any wiser, any stronger, any more compassionate, or any more grateful if his plan were followed.

We who chose the Saviour's plan knew that we would be embarking on a precarious, difficult journey, for we walk the ways of the world and sin and stumble, cutting us off from our Father. But the Firstborn in the Spirit offered Himself as a sacrifice to atone for the sins of all. Through unspeakable suffering He became the great Redeemer, the Saviour of all mankind, thus making possible our successful return to our Father." -President Monson Saturday Oct. 2, 2010

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Interesting answers so far. It seems there is a variety of answers. I think it is interesting that as of right now the majority view is that Satan put forth a plan that would have us saved through forced obedience. I am curious however from what source this comes from? How does forced obedience work?

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Just as a sidebar to this discussion and certainly germane to it is that there isn't any viable OT connection between Lucifer and ha-satan. The reference Isaiah used was in connection with an earlier power play that is connected with Ugaritic literature and reflects their mythology. In addition, the term Satan, while often applied to a demonic deity in the OT has no connection whatsoever with an actual personage, but was applied to a angelic figure as a appellation of special designation such as "special prosecutor". It was only in the Christian and post-Christian era that an actual personal and anthropological connection has been made. There isn't an OT connection.

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If I had been at the council, I would have suggested a plan wherein the human body is able to procreate before the age of accountability. Also, I would suggest the evolution of a virus that kills all humans before the age of accountability.

That way, everyone could be saved in the Celestial Kingdom without frustrating agency and the principles of the gospel. And since no one could sin, we wouldn't need a redeemer and all the Glory would be God's by default.

Or perhaps in your case the veil is very thin and you just supplied us with more details of the plan that wasn't accepted.

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If I had been at the council, I would have suggested a plan wherein the human body is able to procreate before the age of accountability. Also, I would suggest the evolution of a virus that kills all humans before the age of accountability.

That way, everyone could be saved in the Celestial Kingdom without frustrating agency and the principles of the gospel. And since no one could sin, we wouldn't need a redeemer and all the Glory would be God's by default.

Let me just be the first to say... EWWW! :P

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Just as a sidebar to this discussion and certainly germane to it is that there isn't any viable OT connection between Lucifer and ha-satan. The reference Isaiah used was in connection with an earlier power play that is connected with Ugaritic literature and reflects their mythology. In addition, the term Satan, while often applied to a demonic deity in the OT has no connection whatsoever with an actual personage, but was applied to a angelic figure as a appellation of special designation such as "special prosecutor". It was only in the Christian and post-Christian era that an actual personal and anthropological connection has been made. There isn't an OT connection.

So do you discount BOM references to the angel who fell and became the devil (2 Ne 9:8 )? Those would be pre-Christian but obviously not independent of Isaiah.

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The Story of Two Sons

Before the face of the Father come two sons.

The first son says to his Father, I will go down among men, and I will teach them to call me by your name, and I will cause them all to do right. In this way they will all be clean before you, and in this way you will lose none of your children and they will return to you.

The second son says to his Father, I will go down among men, and I will teach them your name and who you are and that you sent me. And your children will remain free to choose the course they desire; yet I offer myself as a sacrifice for them. Let the sin that arises from their struggle to return to you be placed upon my body, and I will suffer in their stead, and in this way they may become clean and may continue to live and not die from their sin. In this way, all of your sons and daughters may return to you if they will; and they will have joy.

The history of the earth and its ages, IS the story of the two sons. As we come before the Father and present ourselves, which son are we? What is our approach to our brothers and sisters on the earth; or, what is the approach that we are emulating?

As the scenes of the 7th seal are unfolding, from havoc to union, at the culmination of this great eon of mortality, what, do you think, will be the ending of the story? Which offering will the Father accept? Which son will bear the gift of the return of the children of the family back into their home and re-inheritance? Are there any on the earth that are not the sons and daughters of God? No; all are.

For most of the history of the earth, the first son has made his presentation (overall in sway over the earth, not speaking of individuals or smaller groups). Now, the second son will make his presentation in the gathering of the Father's children to the order of the Son of God, and in the inception and reign of the millenial era of peace, justice, light, union, liberty, and redemption. How will we return to, or know, or hear the answer of acceptance, of our Father? Will we know by speaking or acting as the first son did, to be cast out? Or will we know, and enter in, by speaking or acting as the second son did?

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What was Satan's Plan?

I chose the second option because it came closest to the idea that he would redeem us all unconditionally by making us unaccountable. I think that was ultimately his sales pitch

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So do you discount BOM references to the angel who fell and became the devil (2 Ne 9:8 )? Those would be pre-Christian but obviously not independent of Isaiah.

I wouldn't count them as (to coin a phrase) first testament nor even "second testament", but certainly "third" or Mormon testament. Also, I was very careful to say that while the OT doesn't agree to the designation of ha-satan other, more modern theologies have. Like most things it would probably be a matter of faith.

To be straight in my response I would have to say at the surface of it the 2 Nephi quote is referring to a literal Satan, albeit using words that are more Greek than modern. I don't find this all that surprising since much of Mormonism is based on the Greek and early Christians concepts of evil and demons. Nor would I disagree that the quote is referencing Isaiah. The bigger question must therefore prevail: What was Isaiah meaning when he reference Lucifer and his fall?

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David Bokovoy has a great explanation of how Lehi came to find Satan described in the Hebrew scriptures.

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