Indeed all things that have been done by Him have been done in wisdom. That does not indicate He conceived of all evil deeds and thoughts all by Himself. I simply don't see how that can be assumed from this passage.
love,
stem
Your first sentence does not accommodate the qualifications you assign to it in your second sentence. The first sentence is absolute; i.e, "all things." Note, too, that you introduce a new element in the second sentence that strikes me as an argumentive distraction, to wit: "all by Himself."
At first it might seem that if God created all things, then evil must have been created by God. However, evil is not a “thing” like a rock or electricity. You cannot have a jar of evil. Evil has no existence of its own, it is really the absence of God.
Simply said- God does not create evil. God only creates that which is good. He gives that good- which is always innocent in it's beginning, the power to choose- whether to be obedient or not. He also provides laws and both rewards and consequences for our actions that we ourselves choose to do. As we make those choices we are either protected and justified by law or we are condemned by law. If we become evil, it is only because we ourselves have created it for ourselves. We ourselves therefore are the creators of evil and of good- through our choices.
Luvifer was not created evil nor was he created with a knowledges that he would become evil. He was innocent in the beginning just as you and I- he was on equal footing the same as the rest of us. he chose to become evil through disobedience. He was not predestined to become evil, his actual destiny of his creation was to become a God himself just as it is our destiny to become the same. but the choice is ours and ours alone. No one writes our future except for our own choices- they write our future.
Some things thought/done in this world are evil
All things done/thought were known by God before anything else existed (before He created)
Therefore those things that are evil were originally conceived of by God
If one considers, thinks through, the mainstream concept of God (He who is self-existent, knows all things, created all things out of nothing, or His own conception) then it must be concluded, if the logical steps are followed, that God is the very source of evil. Let's think of it this way too...
No evil ever would exist or occur or be thought of if God did not conceive of the evil designs before creating ex nihilo, right?
God had to know, theoretically at least, that Lucifer would rebel and seek to cause destruction among the rest of creation before Lucifer existed. Indeed, thinking of it that way, God being all there was before creation, the very evil deeds of lucifer must have originated in the conception of God. If not so, then God did not know all things before creating. It must be noted that Lucifer would never have rebelled if God did not know, conceive of, the rebellion before creating lucifer. The conclusion then is Lucifer rebelled because God conceived of the rebellion all on his own.
I enourage thoughtful discourse on this topic, and by all means relate any issues with LDS belief as it fits.
love,
stem
Hi Stem.
Catholics often define evil as "absence of good". You may think of this as a mental gymnastic. I don't. I'll give the briefest defense. Evil isn't anything that is. Evil is things that are not. It is health that is missing. It is virtue that is lacking. It is that which is contrary to good nature...that is a temporary result of the Fall of Man, which is our "felix culpa" (happy fault), which brings about a greater glory in redemption, than would have been without a Fall. Evil isn't created. It is by man, made in God's image, "Uncreation". So yes, I hold that God creates good things out of nothing, ex nihilo. But I say He does even more, making good come out of less than nothing, evil. In this Valley of Tears, we have various disasters that befall us, the greatest of which is inevitable death...but if death is swallowed up in victory, if God used the death of His only Begotten to accomplish life, we see that the good God, who created everything good, Who permitted that evil should enter His good Creation, makes good even out of the greatest evil.
Maidservant, on 17 December 2010 - 09:36 PM, said:
Evil is what we choose to do to harm each other, to harm (crucify) the innocent.
I appreciate what you have said even if I have had a bit of a hard time following it. I like the quote above. If evil is that which we choose, then wherein does the original thought come from? Mainstream Christians, if they think through their own belief system, would require the thought originated with God, as I've argued. I really don't see anyway out of that.
Your first sentence does not accommodate the qualifications you assign to it in your second sentence.
Perhaps not. I don't really see how, but perhaps you are correct.
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The first sentence is absolute; i.e, "all things." Note, too, that you introduce a new element in the second sentence that strikes me as an argumentive distraction, to wit: "all by Himself."
I agree with your last point as well...I struggle to get the point across while maintaining focus. The addition was an effort to maintain focus.
At first it might seem that if God created all things, then evil must have been created by God. However, evil is not a “thing” like a rock or electricity. You cannot have a jar of evil. Evil has no existence of its own, it is really the absence of God.
Concerning my argument I don't think you have a leg to stand on with this. I never suggested evil is a thing. I have suggested that evil thoughts/deeds had to originate somewhere, and according to the mainstream concept, those thoughts/deeds must have had their origin in the conception of God. If God did not conceive of a Lucifer that would rebel and seek destruction before anything else existed, then there would be no Lucifer, for instance. If God did not conceive of the evil of murder or other evil deeds/thoughts before anything else existed, then there never would be murder. Men, or Lucifer did not originate those ideas, since all thoughts by those created, on the mainstream view, were first thought of/conceived of by God.
Simply said- God does not create evil. God only creates that which is good. He gives that good- which is always innocent in it's beginning, the power to choose- whether to be obedient or not. He also provides laws and both rewards and consequences for our actions that we ourselves choose to do. As we make those choices we are either protected and justified by law or we are condemned by law. If we become evil, it is only because we ourselves have created it for ourselves. We ourselves therefore are the creators of evil and of good- through our choices.
Luvifer was not created evil nor was he created with a knowledges that he would become evil. He was innocent in the beginning just as you and I- he was on equal footing the same as the rest of us. he chose to become evil through disobedience. He was not predestined to become evil, his actual destiny of his creation was to become a God himself just as it is our destiny to become the same. but the choice is ours and ours alone. No one writes our future except for our own choices- they write our future.
I agree with what you have said, essentially. Of course in this explanation it seems creation was never creation ex nihilo.
Catholics often define evil as "absence of good". You may think of this as a mental gymnastic. I don't. I'll give the briefest defense. Evil isn't anything that is. Evil is things that are not. It is health that is missing. It is virtue that is lacking. It is that which is contrary to good nature...that is a temporary result of the Fall of Man, which is our "felix culpa" (happy fault), which brings about a greater glory in redemption, than would have been without a Fall. Evil isn't created.
I agree with you up to this point.
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It is by man, made in God's image, "Uncreation". So yes, I hold that God creates good things out of nothing, ex nihilo. But I say He does even more, making good come out of less than nothing, evil. In this Valley of Tears, we have various disasters that befall us, the greatest of which is inevitable death...but if death is swallowed up in victory, if God used the death of His only Begotten to accomplish life, we see that the good God, who created everything good, Who permitted that evil should enter His good Creation, makes good even out of the greatest evil.
3DOP
I just have a few questions to consider then...If God knew all things before anything else existed, including all things that would happen as a result of His creation, then all things are directly contingent upon God, right? If deeds/thoughts are included in all things, which they must be if God conceived of them as well, then these deeds/thoughts must have their origin in God's conception, right? If not, what is your explanation for this?
You see...if God is what is good, and He alone existed before creating anything, and He alone knew all things that would happen as a result of His creation, then all things that come about due to His creation were initially conceived of by God, right? If God before creating determined that no creature would suffer any amount of suffering ever, then none would suffer ever... If God before creating determined that there would be no Lucifer to rebel, then there would be no Lucifer to rebel, right?
If God is all powerful. Why doesn't he just anialate evil in the first place. He must be pretty sadistic to allow his creations to suffer so.
"Works are necessary for salvation but they do not cause salvation; for faith alone gives life.” -- Martin Luther "Thus, it is just as impossible to separate faith and works as it is to separate heat and light from fire!" -- Martin Luther
If God is all powerful. Why doesn't he just anialate evil in the first place. He must be pretty sadistic to allow his creations to suffer so.
That's an interesting point too. If God is all-powerful, if God knew the outcome of each of His creations, why create some creature out of nothing if that creature will suffer eternally? You see, according to the mainstream concept, all creatures who will suffer eternally in hell, the worst type of suffering imaginable, really have no way to avoid it, since God knew their exact choices before creating them out of nothing.
Isa. 45:7 (KJV)
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.
Where God explicitly takes credit for it.
He did create the serpent after all and put the Tree of Knowledge in the Garden in the first place.
Avraham Gileadi proposes in his essay in Isaiah and the Prophets that in context this refers not to himself as the absolute source of all good and evil, but rather refers specifically to God's provision of covenant blessings (peace) and their associated covenant curses (evil).
On the other hand, Margaret Barker suggests that this Deutero-Isaiah statement comes as a statement of the inevitable logic of radical monotheism, and that this radical monotheism is a break from previous understandings that involved fallen angels. (See The Older Testament, for example, and her Isaiah commentary.)
In either case, the text has as history, an author, and a context, all of which we filter through interpretive lenses which all call into question its use as a stand-alone proof text.
Kevin Christensen, on 21 December 2010 - 11:28 AM, said:
Avraham Gileadi proposes in his essay in Isaiah and the Prophets that in context this refers not to himself as the absolute source of all good and evil, but rather refers specifically to God's provision of covenant blessings (peace) and their associated covenant curses (evil).
On the other hand, Margaret Barker suggests that this Deutero-Isaiah statement comes as a statement of the inevitable logic of radical monotheism, and that this radical monotheism is a break from previous understandings that involved fallen angels. (See The Older Testament, for example, and her Isaiah commentary.)
In either case, the text has as history, an author, and a context, all of which we filter through interpretive lenses which all call into question its use as a stand-alone proof text.
Kevin Christensen
Pittsburgh, PA
I think this might simply be a case of... "As far as it is translated correctly."
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The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the LORD who does all these. (Isaiah 45:7, NASB)
I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things. (Isaiah 45:7, NIV)
Isaiah 45:7 contrasts opposites. Darkness is the opposite of light. However, evil is not the opposite of peace. The Hebrew word translated "peace" is sha?lo?m,2 which has many meanings, mostly related to the well being of individuals. Ra??a?h,3 the Hebrew word translated "evil" in the KJV often refers to adversity or calamity. There are two forms of the word. Strong's H7451a most often refers to moral evil, whereas Strong's H7451b (the form used here) most often refers to calamity or distress. Obviously, "calamity" is a better antonym of "peace" than "evil."
"Works are necessary for salvation but they do not cause salvation; for faith alone gives life.” -- Martin Luther "Thus, it is just as impossible to separate faith and works as it is to separate heat and light from fire!" -- Martin Luther
Evil exists because of two facts. First is that there are laws with both rewards and penalties for either obeying or disobeying. Second is that there are created beings with free will to live under these laws.
That said, God is all powerful in his ability to perfectly judge and execute judgment where needed and to reward perfectly where rewards are justified. God does not know beforehand who of his future creations will choose bad or good, that is why we truly are free to choose- we are not predestined to some outcome that only God knows.
Evil exists because of two facts. First is that there are laws with both rewards and penalties for either obeying or disobeying. Second is that there are created beings with free will to live under these laws.
I don't know if I necessarily buy your stated facts. Whether there are rewards or not anyone can engage in the evil of envy. On your second one, depends on what yoou mean by created beings.
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That said, God is all powerful in his ability to perfectly judge and execute judgment where needed and to reward perfectly where rewards are justified. God does not know beforehand who of his future creations will choose bad or good, that is why we truly are free to choose- we are not predestined to some outcome that only God knows.
I don't know if we know, or you know if what you say here is true or not. For instance, God knew which of the apostles would betray Jesus, did He not?
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stemelbow, on 17 December 2010 - 07:53 PM, said:
