162 replies to this topic

[stemelbow]

Let's try this...

Some things thought/done in this world are evil
All things done/thought were known by God before anything else existed (before He created)
Therefore those things that are evil were originally conceived of by God

If one considers, thinks through, the mainstream concept of God (He who is self-existent, knows all things, created all things out of nothing, or His own conception) then it must be concluded, if the logical steps are followed, that God is the very source of evil.  Let's think of it this way too...

No evil ever would exist or occur or be thought of if God did not conceive of the evil designs before creating ex nihilo, right?

God had to know, theoretically at least, that Lucifer would rebel and seek to cause destruction among the rest of creation before Lucifer existed.  Indeed, thinking of it that way, God being all there was before creation, the very evil deeds of lucifer must have originated in the conception of God.  If not so, then God did not know all things before creating.  It must be noted that Lucifer would never have rebelled if God did not know, conceive of, the rebellion before creating lucifer.  The conclusion then is Lucifer rebelled because God conceived of the rebellion all on his own.


I enourage thoughtful discourse on this topic, and by all means relate any issues with LDS belief as it fits.

love,
stem

[kicks]

stemelbow, on 17 December 2010 - 02:51 PM, said:

Let's try this...

Some things thought/done in this world are evil
All things done/thought were known by God before anything else existed (before He created)
Therefore those things that are evil were originally conceived of by God

If one considers, thinks through, the mainstream concept of God (He who is self-existent, knows all things, created all things out of nothing, or His own conception) then it must be concluded, if the logical steps are followed, that God is the very source of evil.  Let's think of it this way too...

No evil ever would exist or occur or be thought of if God did not conceive of the evil designs before creating ex nihilo, right?

God had to know, theoretically at least, that Lucifer would rebel and seek to cause destruction among the rest of creation before Lucifer existed.  Indeed, thinking of it that way, God being all there was before creation, the very evil deeds of lucifer must have originated in the conception of God.  If not so, then God did not know all things before creating.  It must be noted that Lucifer would never have rebelled if God did not know, conceive of, the rebellion before creating lucifer.  The conclusion then is Lucifer rebelled because God conceived of the rebellion all on his own.


I enourage thoughtful discourse on this topic, and by all means relate any issues with LDS belief as it fits.

love,
stem

If one accepts the doctrine of creation ex nihilo, then God is currently and constantly creating and sustaining everthing in every moment, for without God, everthing would cease to exist. Therefore, God is the creator of evil if one espouses such a doctrine.

Edited by kicks, 17 December 2010 - 04:45 PM.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

No... God is the giver of agency. His creation can choose to use it for good or evil. I don't see an issue here.

[ElfLord]

There is always...

Isa. 45:7 (KJV)
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

Where God explicitly takes credit for it.

He did create the serpent after all and put the Tree of Knowledge in the Garden in the first place.

[paulpatter]

stemelbow, on 17 December 2010 - 02:51 PM, said:

Let's try this...

Some things thought/done in this world are evil
All things done/thought were known by God before anything else existed (before He created)
Therefore those things that are evil were originally conceived of by God

If one considers, thinks through, the mainstream concept of God (He who is self-existent, knows all things, created all things out of nothing, or His own conception) then it must be concluded, if the logical steps are followed, that God is the very source of evil.  Let's think of it this way too...

No evil ever would exist or occur or be thought of if God did not conceive of the evil designs before creating ex nihilo, right?

God had to know, theoretically at least, that Lucifer would rebel and seek to cause destruction among the rest of creation before Lucifer existed.  Indeed, thinking of it that way, God being all there was before creation, the very evil deeds of lucifer must have originated in the conception of God.  If not so, then God did not know all things before creating.  It must be noted that Lucifer would never have rebelled if God did not know, conceive of, the rebellion before creating lucifer.  The conclusion then is Lucifer rebelled because God conceived of the rebellion all on his own.


I enourage thoughtful discourse on this topic, and by all means relate any issues with LDS belief as it fits.

love,
stem

For it must needs be, that there is an opposition in all things.  If not. . .righteousness could not be brought to pass, neither wickedness, neither holiness, nor misery, neither good nor bad.  Wherefore, all things must needs be a compound in one. . . .     --2 Nephi:  2:11

. . .all things have been done in the wisdom of him who knoweth all things.   --2 Nephi: 2:24

[BookofMormonLuvr]

ElfLord, on 17 December 2010 - 04:56 PM, said:

There is always...

Isa. 45:7 (KJV)
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

Where God explicitly takes credit for it.

He did create the serpent after all and put the Tree of Knowledge in the Garden in the first place.

In the sense that He allows His creation to use their agency for evil, He creates evil. But does He put murders, whoredoms, thievery, etc... into people hearts or minds? Absolutely not!

Quote

James 1:13


Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

Edited by BookofMormonLuvr, 17 December 2010 - 05:05 PM.

[stemelbow]

Quote

God is the creator of evil if one espouses such a doctrine.

I agree...the assumptions taken via those who profess the mainstream concept of God would force if taken to its logical conclusion one to accept that God is the source of evil.

love,
stem

[stemelbow]

Quote

No... God is the giver of agency. His creation can choose to use it for good or evil. I don't see an issue here.

Being a fellow BoM lover, I too do not see such an issue for LDS here, although I'd welcome anyone to explain an issue if he/she so sees one.

love,
stem

[stemelbow]

Quote

There is always...

Isa. 45:7 (KJV)
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

Where God explicitly takes credit for it.

He did create the serpent after all and put the Tree of Knowledge in the Garden in the first place.

Judging by your other posts I take it you are LDS.  Of course, God did not create out of nothing, so by making peace and thereby creating evil does not suggest that God conceived of all evil deeds whilst He existed on His own.  

love,
stem

[stemelbow]

Quote

For it must needs be, that there is an opposition in all things. If not. . .righteousness could not be brought to pass, neither wickedness, neither holiness, nor misery, neither good nor bad. Wherefore, all things must needs be a compound in one. . . . --2 Nephi: 2:11

. . .all things have been done in the wisdom of him who knoweth all things. --2 Nephi: 2:24

Good scriptures.  Nothing to indicate God is the source of evil though.

love,
stem

[stemelbow]

Quote

In the sense that He allows His creation to use their agency for evil, He creates evil. But does He put murders, whoredoms, thievery, etc... into people hearts or minds? Absolutely not!

Allowing otherwise existing beings to exercise agency is in no way creating evil.  Not even a little bit.  I don't think your conclusion makes sense in light of the premise.

love,
stem

[BookofMormonLuvr]

stemelbow, on 17 December 2010 - 07:27 PM, said:

I agree...the assumptions taken via those who profess the mainstream concept of God would force if taken to its logical conclusion one to accept that God is the source of evil.

love,
stem

I don't believe ex nihilo creation necessitates God being the creator of evil. I don't see how this creates a problem for Christians. He made creation and gave them agency, our natural selves can create enough mischief from that point forward.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

stemelbow, on 17 December 2010 - 07:32 PM, said:

Allowing otherwise existing beings to exercise agency is in no way creating evil.  Not even a little bit.  I don't think your conclusion makes sense in light of the premise.

love,
stem

I am not the one making the case for God creating evil.

[stemelbow]

BookofMormonLuvr, on 17 December 2010 - 07:33 PM, said:

I don't believe ex nihilo creation necessitates God being the creator of evil. I don't see how this creates a problem for Christians. He made creation and gave them agency, our natural selves can create enough mischief from that point forward.

Cool.  So you dont' see it.  I've explained my point of view, you are free to accept it, reject it, refute it, or just plain brush it aside as you have done.  Well wishes.

love,
stem

[stemelbow]

BookofMormonLuvr, on 17 December 2010 - 07:34 PM, said:

I am not the one making the case for God creating evil.

Me either.  I am clearly presenting the problem[s] as is inherent within the mainstream assumptions concerning God, via argument.  I am also opening up for anyone to engage my argument.  You are free to engage (I'll add), accept, reject, refute, or just plain brush the argument aside.  Well wishes again.

love,
stem

[paulpatter]

stemelbow, on 17 December 2010 - 07:31 PM, said:

Good scriptures.  Nothing to indicate God is the source of evil though.

love,
stem

Kindly re-read the second scripture, thus:   ". . .all things  [emphasis added]  have been done in the wisdom of him who knoweth all things."   --2 Nephi: 2:24

[stemelbow]

Quote

". . .all things [emphasis added] have been done in the wisdom of him who knoweth all things." --2 Nephi: 2:24

Indeed all things that have been done by Him have been done in wisdom.  That does not indicate He conceived of all evil deeds and thoughts all by Himself.  I simply don't see how that can be assumed from this passage.  

love,
stem

[BookofMormonLuvr]

stemelbow, on 17 December 2010 - 07:40 PM, said:

Me either.  I am clearly presenting the problem[s] as is inherent within the mainstream assumptions concerning God, via argument.  I am also opening up for anyone to engage my argument.  You are free to engage (I'll add), accept, reject, refute, or just plain brush the argument aside.  Well wishes again.

love,
stem

I believe you are seeing a problem with mainstream Christian thought that simply is not there. But more power to you if you think there is one.

[stemelbow]

Quote

I believe you are seeing a problem with mainstream Christian thought that simply is not there. But more power to you if you think there is one.

I am feeling so empowered now.  Nothing can stop me.  Thanks for the support.

love,
stem

[Maidservant]

I can't speak for mainstream Christianity.  I can't speak for mainstream LDS.  I can't speak for mainstream anything . . . that stream went by me a long time ago . . . .

However a couple of notes here . . . I'm wondering if it is overdone in theology to worry about "source" . . . not sure what else to say about that, but that just came to mind . . . who says we should postulate a source?

Good and evil can be approached through more than one lens, and persons at various knowledge and spiritual stages will approach them differently even to the degree of defining them differently.  They are not static ideas.

I am a person who does NOT believe in objects or forces or [anything] independent of being.  Therefore good and evil only exist in beings and not in some ether out there.  Evil, as an ether (if it were), does not provide influence upon us to do evil.

Influence only comes from other beings (who are in a condition of evil or good or some spectrum of both or ??).

Evil is God . . .wounded.  Evil is God . . . crucified.  Evil is God . . . fallen.  Evil is God . . . tainted and unclean.  Evil is God . . . in captivity.  So on and so forth.  Our (LDS) myth of Satan describes Satan as a being of light . . . that became miserable (etc) by his own choosing.  In this way we can see that evil is NOT opposite to God . . . it is God in dire straits, in mud, in need of rescuing (speaking here of the children of God, or God in us).  It is the light, covered over, waiting and yearning to be revealed again . . . it is a nature that hasn't reached a potential or has a barrier between us and God . . . NOT an opposing nature.

Evil is what we choose to do to harm each other, to harm (crucify) the innocent.

And those 2nd Nephi verses I don't agree with using to discuss evil.  Although I realize there are some verses ahead of that, that do.  But that verse itself does not say that the opposition involves evil.  But that is just my thinking, and I may need to rethink that.