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Balzer

God as a man

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Joh:4:24: God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

No where in the bible say God was a exalted man and became a Spirit!

Also a Spirit does not have flesh and bones!

So how can the mormon be so confused or contradict the bible??

one love

And since you must worship him "in spirit" I guess that means you had better remove your flesh and bones before you start worshipping, right?

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Joh:4:24: God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

No where in the bible say God was a exalted man and became a Spirit!

Also a Spirit does not have flesh and bones!

So how can the mormon be so confused or contradict the bible??

one love

Didn't you read Post # 63?

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And since you must worship him "in spirit" I guess that means you had better remove your flesh and bones before you start worshipping, right?

Yes! that would be the best idea but we are still human so our flesh bones and blood does get in the way of the truth , and the spirit, because we get carnal in the flesh and bone!

Ro:8:5: For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

Ro:8:6: For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

Ro:8:7: Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Ro:8:8: So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Ro:8:11: But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Ro:8:12: Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

Ro:8:13: For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Ro:8:14: For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Ro:8:15: For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

Ro:8:16: The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

one love

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Take a look at these: http://lds.org/scrip...father?lang=eng

In particular, John 10:34, Romans 8:17, 2 Corinthians 3:18, Galatians 4:7, 1st John 3:2, and Revelations 3:21. But check out them all in that link.

In look through all those verse I seen always a process , a becoming, a waiting , but none says they were from the beginning like God is the beginning and first and last .

If the Mormon church could understand what is meant in John 1:1 and Revelation Alpha and Omega, or in Rev 22 the first and the last, the begotten it will contradict this man God philosophy!

But the bible is very clear that God is so awesome no flesh bone, human mind, or any living creature can ever understand God not even the angels can understand God, and even angels worship Him in the spirit not in some sort of flesh and bones.

A seed is another form than a plant, or a tree, but the seed is the root.

I don't know if a religion know how a cow eat green grass and produce white milk, maybe because the cow was a man at one time and that is why cow are sacred in some other lands , because of a man beng reincardinated in a cow.:P

one love

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Yes! that would be the best idea but we are still human so our flesh bones and blood does get in the way of the truth , and the spirit, because we get carnal in the flesh and bone!

Really!? Shall we all sing coo-coo?

Ro:8:5: For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

Ro:8:6: For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

Ro:8:7: Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Ro:8:8: So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Ro:8:11: But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Ro:8:12: Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

Ro:8:13: For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Ro:8:14: For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Ro:8:15: For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

Ro:8:16: The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

one love

So you don't believe in the resurrection?

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God is so awesome no flesh bone, human mind, or any living creature can ever understand God not even the angels can understand God, and even angels worship Him in the spirit not in some sort of flesh and bones.

I'm glad I worship a God who can be understood as a loving Father and who is accessible because he does have flesh and bone. Christ said that he does nothing save what he has seen his Father do. It appears he understood God, his Father, pretty well.

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It has been quite interesting to me to read the great St. Augustine's City of God, in which he treats with acceptance the subject of men becoming gods. (How could he not -- it's deeply biblical!) I think I will post a separate thread about that later.

I also find it intriguing -- and quite mystifying -- that he could present an impassioned defence of men and Christ-God receiving resurrected bodies of flesh and bone but still cling to the Hellenistic idea that the Father-God doesn't get that option.

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If god is/was a man, is now in a body of flesh and bone, and even his spirit consists of substance/more-fine-spirit-matter, what is left for god to do? Where is his power and might? It seems to me this teaching has turned him into mere machine. Exactly that which the spiritualist fights against....A materialist, causation up, matter creates mind. According to this thinking, everything that god does is through cause and effect, and if this is the case, the only thing that makes him god/special....above all, is he is privy to certain information. He has been handed keys of authority from another. What is to stop a civilization from advancing to this same status of all knowledge.....on it's own?

Whereas if it is a system of *causation down* Mind creates matter, all that is is his creation.....from his own mind. Zero cause and effect. Just pure will. He has all control.

Course I don't believe in deity based religion, just trying to point out what I think is a fallacy in making god entirely material.

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... what is left for god to do? Where is his power and might?

Moses 1:39 For behold, this is my work and my glory

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Moses 1:39 For behold, this is my work and my glory

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He wants to "bring to pass"..... for his own glory? How can something that is *perfect* need anything?

It depends on what meaning you give to glory. One of the dictionary definitions is "a state of absolute happiness, gratification, contentment". Who said God "needs" anything. I think of it as the most unselfish gift he can give out of love for his children.

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For starters, God never even created us in a traditional sense of the term. Rather we coexisted with God in the beginning.

This new kind of God is in no way diminished by history or previous weakness.

I still don't get the LDS view on this. What am I to make of all the "In the beginning . . ." stuff in Genesis?

What is "this new kind of God?"

Respectfully,

Balzer

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You will struggle to get a straight answer from any source other than 'this knowledge is not essential to your eternal salvation'.

Gordon B Hinkley showed publically that he was confused about this subject and admitted that we don't know a lot about it.

The fact is, that the identity of God within Mormonism should be clear - it isn't.

Is God married? (According to doctrine you have to be to reach the top level of the Celestial Kingdom)

Is God a person or a spirit? (You will find scriptural references saying He is a spirit, you will find scriptural references saying he has a body. You won't find scriptural refences saying he has both a spirit and a body)

Sadly, religion is scripture mingled with the philosophies of man.

Mormonism is a religion (all religions are man made vehicles that prophess to teach The Gosepl - a bit like schools that teach a curriculum - some teach it clearer than others) and therefore subject to the vagaries of human beings. If it wasn't man made questions like 'was God once a Man?' would have very clear explicit answers.

Did Jesus ever give an unclear answer?

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Did Jesus ever give an unclear answer?

Uh, yeah. The Parables were given so that those who were attuned to the spirit would understand, and even his disciples had to ask what they meant.

Pres. Hinckley knew the answer, but the question was how much did he want to share in such a circumstance; it's better to be vague than to say too much to people who don't have a basic understanding of a very profound doctrine. He later stated that he didn't want anyone to think he didn't understand the doctrine.

The fact is, that the identity of God within Mormonism should be clear - it isn't.

Depends on who you ask. Maybe you didn't understand it but some of us do.

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It depends on what meaning you give to glory. One of the dictionary definitions is "a state of absolute happiness, gratification, contentment". Who said God "needs" anything. I think of it as the most unselfish gift he can give out of love for his children.

He's doing it then for a reason. (can there be no reason whatsoever?) He likes to feel the sensation of love, joy. He wants to see his children succeed.

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He's doing it then for a reason. (can there be no reason whatsoever?) He likes to feel the sensation of love, joy. He wants to see his children succeed.

What's your point? You were indicating he did it out of some great need. I am saying he does it yes because he wants to but out of his love for us.

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You will struggle to get a straight answer from any source other than 'this knowledge is not essential to your eternal salvation'.

What are you talking about. I have never once been in a converstaion were some one stated that "Not knowing who God is is not essential to your salvation". Though that is true, I think the LDS train of thought is quite clear on the matter. What is not so clear are all of the details of the Father's life on his earth.

Gordon B Hinkley showed publically that he was confused about this subject and admitted that we don't know a lot about it.

Um actually he did not. It is funny that you accuse mormons of not knowing what they really teach yet you cannot, yourself, even quote Pres, Hinkley correctly.

The fact is, that the identity of God within Mormonism should be clear - it isn't.

Is God married? (According to doctrine you have to be to reach the top level of the Celestial Kingdom)

And this fact is fabricated out of whole cloth. "The God of Mormonism" is much more clear than the God of tradiational Christianity.

Does God have a belly button? Geeze the LDS church does not teach anything one way or another, I am so confused now, I think I will leave the church.

Is God a person or a spirit? (You will find scriptural references saying He is a spirit, you will find scriptural references saying he has a body. You won't find scriptural refences saying he has both a spirit and a body)

Geeze, Because it is obvious that he has both because we have both. I guess you don't read between the lines very well?

THe interesting thing is were do you get this black and white view of things? It certainly was never taught like that and Jesus' parables come to mind that were ment to conceal the truth of his message.

Sadly, religion is scripture mingled with the philosophies of man.

Actually the problem is you. Sadly, Jon is scripture mingled with the philosophies of man.

Mormonism is a religion (all religions are man made vehicles that prophess to teach The Gosepl - a bit like schools that teach a curriculum - some teach it clearer than others) and therefore subject to the vagaries of human beings. If it wasn't man made questions like 'was God once a Man?' would have very clear explicit answers.

I think the church teaches rather clearly that God is a man and we are his children and can become like him.

Did Jesus ever give an unclear answer?

ACtually yes, and the fact that you even have to ask this makes me wonder quite a bit about your self and your real agenda.

Yes, yes, religion is bad we just need Jesus. I have heard it all before.

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What's your point? You were indicating he did it out of some great need. I am saying he does it yes because he wants to but out of his love for us.

God lacks nothing, God needs nothing, he is perfect and complete. Yet he wants, feels compelled, desires to help his children.....for what reason? NO reason? Because he likes to feel love?

It feels to me like a mild conundrum.

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God lacks nothing, God needs nothing, he is perfect and complete. Yet he wants, feels compelled, desires to help his children.....for what reason? NO reason? Because he likes to feel love?

Not sure why you think God is so emotionless when the scriptures talk of both his anger and his love. He does what he does because he loves us and wants us to have a fullness of joy. Why are you mocking God by making him such an unfeeling, uncaring being? Why do you think even a perfect being doesn't want the best for his children?

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God lacks nothing, God needs nothing, he is perfect and complete. Yet he wants, feels compelled, desires to help his children.....for what reason? NO reason? Because he likes to feel love?

It feels to me like a mild conundrum.

Feeling compelled and a desire to help his children = a need?

Really??

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Does God have a belly button?

I think the church teaches rather clearly that God is a man . . .

Yes God would have a belly button, if you're right. Wouldn't he?

Can you please give me what you believe to be the strongest verse from the Bible on the fact that God was a man?

Respectfully,

Balzer

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Yes God would have a belly button, if you're right. Wouldn't he?

Can you please give me what you believe to be the strongest verse from the Bible on the fact that God was a man?

Respectfully,

Balzer

Your (The EV's) favorite proof text in the bible from Numbers 23:19.

19God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent:

It tells us that God is not a man that should lie. He is still a man he just does not lie.

Check and mate.

Notice how Jesus is called the "son of man".

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Not sure why you think God is so emotionless when the scriptures talk of both his anger and his love. He does what he does because he loves us and wants us to have a fullness of joy. Why are you mocking God by making him such an unfeeling, uncaring being? Why do you think even a perfect being doesn't want the best for his children?

The god the Mormon religion has created is no more inportant in the eyes of eternity than you me or anyone. By LDS belief he is simply an entity that came out of the sea of intelligence before we did, and happens to be in charge of this system at this time. He can get mad at me if he wants to for questioning things, and punish my body for a while, but in the long run I, you we are every bit as important as he.....As according to Mormonism's *God was a man* theory.

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Feeling compelled and a desire to help his children = a need?

Really??

Desire isn't require.....but it is indicative of something missing. From a perfect and complete being?

But like I said, It's only a rather mild conundrum....and not worthy of a whole lot of debate.

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The god the Mormon religion has created is no more inportant in the eyes of eternity than you me or anyone.

Not in my eyes. You have a distorted view of how Mormons understand God.

Desire isn't require.....but it is indicative of something missing. From a perfect and complete being?

I think you understand neither perfection or love.

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