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Balzer

God as a man

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Then why assume it was different for God, the Father?

I don't. Thats kind of the point of the thread. What say you?

Respectfully,

Balzer

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To offer perfection and sinlessness to those who are not perfect and sinless.

So the once sinful God sent His Son to earth sinless? Btw, can you remind me if LDS believe that Jesus too earned exaltation somehow before coming to earth? That might work I guess.

Respectfully,

Balzer

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Balzer, exaltation isn't the only way to become as God, or to have that title. The Holy Ghost is another good example.

Are there other examples?

Balzer

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I believe the term for it in scripture is "God of Gods" or "Lord of Lords", or "King of Kings". Take your pick. A "grandfather" is a "father of fathers", is he not?

I see my Father in Heaven in much the same light as that in which I see my earthly father. I will never "catch up" to him (nor to Him)

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Are there other examples?

Balzer

Na, no other examples for us at least. But if you read the Book of Abraham/Moses (forget which one... get them confused a bit), it calls Jesus a God before he's gotten here to Earth.

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Na, no other examples for us at least. But if you read the Book of Abraham/Moses (forget which one... get them confused a bit), it calls Jesus a God before he's gotten here to Earth.

I wonder if this supports the view that Jesus was always God?

Respectfully,

Balzer

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So the once sinful God sent His Son to earth sinless? Btw, can you remind me if LDS believe that Jesus too earned exaltation somehow before coming to earth? That might work I guess.

I don't know if God was once sinful, I only maintain that it doesn't matter what He was before we knew Him. Even our own forgiveness makes carping about the suggestion that He at one time may have sinned unseemly as well as irrelevant. Yes, Jesus was God before coming to earth, even though He did not have a physical body. If some wish to label that exalted, I suppose it is in a sense, but not in the sense that exaltation more commonly refers to the highest resurrected state that could be most fully enjoyed. But others have explained this already, as well as in other threads.

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I wonder if this supports the view that Jesus was always God?

Respectfully,

Balzer

Na, I don't think he wasn't always God... I think he was God once he was selected to be the 'one' in HF's plan. That was the point of change, I think. Once he offered himself to be that ultimate sacrifice, that choice, made him a God. He didn't, of course, at that time, have a celestial body (neither does the Holy Ghost), but he has one now. It is thought the Holy Ghost will eventually have a body as well. And thus, Jesus and the Holy Ghost will also be exalted... it's just that they were 'Gods' before they were exalted as well.

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I don't. Thats kind of the point of the thread. What say you?

Respectfully,

Balzer

But you do, that is the whole premise of this thread.

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No, I really think you nailed it with "Grandgod."

It is hard to tell. While I am a writer, I still have a hard time determining when the author is being sarcastic or not.

the only part of this I have trouble with is the idea that God might somehow become greater.

Why is that a problem?

Since infinity is boundless (pardon the redundancy), it is always expanding, or, at least, some infinities are. Why is God any different?

If He made one creation and then made two, would that not make Him greater? If Jesus, Who is now a resurrected God, like His Father, has His own creation, how would that not make Father greater? Would He, Father, not be increased by His Son's creation?

The analogy of my father's posterity's growing even as mine does (along with those of my brothers and sisters) is directly and perfectly parallel.

Lehi

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Since the official doctrine is that we are to become Gods ourselves and that the Deification of mortal man is the only process given whereby Gods are made, why should this bug you?

BC Space. Please show me biblical evidence that says man can BECOME a god? Please show me biblical evidence where God was once a man? What do you do with Scripture that says (and I am paraphrasing here) "There is no god beside me and there shall be no god after Me." I know not any."

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BC Space. Please show me biblical evidence that says man can BECOME a god? Please show me biblical evidence where God was once a man? What do you do with Scripture that says (and I am paraphrasing here) "There is no god beside me and there shall be no god after Me." I know not any."

Take a look at these: http://lds.org/scriptures/tg/man-potential-to-become-like-heavenly-father?lang=eng

In particular, John 10:34, Romans 8:17, 2 Corinthians 3:18, Galatians 4:7, 1st John 3:2, and Revelations 3:21. But check out them all in that link.

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The question of how we should feel about God potentially being being once as we are now (imperfect and all) is quite interesting.

If we have issues with it then it likely arises from a general misunderstanding about the nature of God and the nature of our relationship with him.

For starters, God never even created us in a traditional sense of the term. Rather we coexisted with God in the beginning.

God has created and developed a plan to help us progress. The outcome, end result is what matters. Just as we would all go to a the best doctor in the world for heart surgery even if they had previously had a heart transplant.

Jospeh Smiths discussion of these principles requires much more of us than simply appending a basic traditional religious conception of the World with the statement, "and at the end you can become God". JS first requires that we gain a new understanding of God and then claims this new kinda God is what we can become.

This new kind of God is in no way diminished by history or previous weakness.

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But you do, that is the whole premise of this thread.

I said: The thing about God once being a man who earned exaltation that bugs me is the fact that, if so, God as a man had to start out less than perfect. In other words, if He had to earn exaltation that fact requires that He was once something less than what he was after earning exaltation. I just can't bring myself to imagine, let alone worship, a creator that wasn't always a perfect being. Can anyone help me understand where I'm getting this wrong?

I was trying to convey the fact that I do not think God or Jesus had to earn exaltation.

(btw I might edit "perfect" to say "sinless")

Respectfully,

Balzer

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It is hard to tell. While I am a writer, I still have a hard time determining when the author is being sarcastic or not.

I wasn't trying to be sarcastic. I truly liked the word Grandgod. :P

Why is that a problem?

Since infinity is boundless (pardon the redundancy), it is always expanding, or, at least, some infinities are. Why is God any different?

If He made one creation and then made two, would that not make Him greater? If Jesus, Who is now a resurrected God, like His Father, has His own creation, how would that not make Father greater? Would He, Father, not be increased by His Son's creation?

The analogy of my father's posterity's growing even as mine does (along with those of my brothers and sisters) is directly and perfectly parallel.

Except you and your father are not God.

Lehi

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Trippy stuff. It occurs to me that if I am to truly believe in the exaltation of man then I necessarily must understand God as having once been a man like me. Really doesn't work otherwise does it? Thinking this concept thru to its farthest reaches I gotta say this belief must be the most dividing one among LDS and non-LDS. Honestly, I can't even begin to imagine that God was once a man like me, imperfect, sinful. Just doesn't compute at all. Also, if this is so, why would He have sent Jesus to earth as a perfect, sinless man? How does that make any sense?

Respectfully,

Balzer

Balzer,

I sense an undertone, that you think this is an odd Mormon idea, that man might become God?

"the Son of God became man so that we might become God" was first documented by the Eary Church Fathers

This teaching is still core doctrine for all Roman Catholics, it's in their Catechism (where I pulled the quote).

Now, for Roman Catholics, the fully developed idea is called Theosis instead of Exhaltation

They are not the same, but both concepts share that fundamental idea, in quotes above.

The Catholics certainly don't believe God was ever a mere man, like you nor I.

Maybe if you study Theosis, it will give you perspective on Exhaltation?

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Balzer,

I sense an undertone, that you think this is an odd Mormon idea, that man might become God?

"the Son of God became man so that we might become God" was first documented by the Eary Church Fathers

This teaching is still core doctrine for all Roman Catholics, it's in their Catechism (where I pulled the quote).

Now, for Roman Catholics, the fully developed idea is called Theosis instead of Exhaltation

They are not the same, but both concepts share that fundamental idea, in quotes above.

The Catholics certainly don't believe God was ever a mere man, like you nor I.

Maybe if you study Theosis, it will give you perspective on Exhaltation?

Yes I think it is an odd idea, but I don't think that only Mormons believe this. I have looked at the Catholic belief in theosis a little, and I agree it seems very similar. Don't agree with the Catholics either. :P

Respectfully,

Balzer

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Milton R. Hunter, The Gospel Throughout The Ages, p.114-115

Yet, if we accept the great law of eternal progression, we must accept the fact that there was a time when Deity was much less powerful than He is today. ... Thus He grew in experience and continued to grow until He attained the status of Godhood.

John A. Widstoe, Rational Theology, p.62

God, angel and similar terms denote merely intelligent beings of varying degree of development. The thought, however, that there is a plurality of gods and other beings of varying grades, is a though of fundamental truth...

Orson Hyde, The Man to Lead God's People, Journal of Discourses, vol.1, p.123

Remember that God, our heavenly Father, was perhaps once a child, and mortal like we ourselves, and rose step by step in the scale of progress, in the school of advancement; has moved forward and overcome, until He has arrived at the point where He now is.

Milton R. Hunter, The Gospel Throughout The Ages, p. 114

Mormon prophets have continuously taught the sublime truth that God the Eternal Father was once a mortal man who passed through a school of earth life similar to that through which we are now passing. He became God

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BC Space. Please show me biblical evidence that says man can BECOME a god?

1 John 3

2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is..

The entire purpose of the Bible is mans deification.

Please show me biblical evidence where God was once a man?

Ex 15

3 The Lord is a man of war: the Lord is his name.

What do you do with Scripture that says (and I am paraphrasing here) "There is no god beside me and there shall be no god after Me." I know not any."

Does God have Amnesia?

John 10

34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken

Or are the scriptures broken?

How can God have a God?

John 20

17Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

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I said: The thing about God once being a man who earned exaltation that bugs me is the fact that, if so, God as a man had to start out less than perfect.

Just how is this conclusion required given the premise? It doesn't of necessity follow. Was Jesus "less than perfect"?

In other words, if He had to earn exaltation that fact requires that He was once something less than what he was after earning exaltation.

Was Jesus something less before He was exalted than what He was after?

And what was meant by the phrase "earned exaltation"? How does one "earn exaltation", especially since you don't think Jesus "earned exaltation".

I just can't bring myself to imagine, let alone worship, a creator that wasn't always a perfect being.

So? It seems that this is YOUR problem, not mine. You seem to accept that Jesus was always perfect, so why not accept that God, the Father, also was always perfect? No one is requiring that God, the Father, wasn't always perfect.

Can anyone help me understand where I'm getting this wrong?

It is difficult if not impossible to pry open a willfully closed mind.

I was trying to convey the fact that I do not think God or Jesus had to earn exaltation.

In what sense does anyone "earn exaltation"? In what sense does anyone "earn" anything. Is your problem with the word "earn"? Perhaps you aren't understanding how it is being used.

(btw I might edit "perfect" to say "sinless")

Ok, Why do you ASSUME that God, the Father, wasn't "sinless", when it is obvious that Jesus was sinless. No one is claiming that God, the Father, wasn't sinless or that you must believe that He wasn't, because, frankly, we don't know. Some are just explaining that they wouldn't be bothered if He wasn't. But if it bothers you, then don't believe it.

But stop complaining about it. NOTHING requires you to accept it.

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For starters, God never even created us in a traditional sense of the term. Rather we coexisted with God in the beginning.

God has created and developed a plan to help us progress. The outcome, end result is what matters.

Jospeh Smiths discussion of these principles requires much more of us than simply appending a basic traditional religious conception of the World with the statement, "and at the end you can become God".

Some salient points that need to be repeated. If one understands the principle that we have always existed and the God as we worship, being the greatest intelligence of all, organized those spirits and set in motion a plan to become perfected (meaning whole) like he is then it gives us a different perspective.

Why is God the father of our spirits? Because he created spiritual bodies for our intelligences to reside in. I don't know what stages he went through to become "perfected" but it is something he was able to do and we weren't without his assistance. And keep in mind perfect in the eternal sense does mean "whole" or complete. Jesus never committed sin yet he became perfect.

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Matt. 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

Who, and when was this done? The implication is clear, there was a time when Jesus didn't have "all power".

Heb. 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

Jesus "learned" "obedience"? So He progressed, didn't He.

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...if so, God as a man had to start out less than perfect.... Can anyone help me understand where I'm getting this wrong?

...

Hi Balzer,

Doctrine and Covenants 58:42

Behold, he who has repented of his sins, the same is forgiven, and I, the Lord, remember them no more.

God does not remember any sins of those who repent. Why should anyone else?

Richard

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Joh:4:24: God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

No where in the bible say God was a exalted man and became a Spirit!

Also a Spirit does not have flesh and bones!

So how can the mormon be so confused or contradict the bible??

one love

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