246 replies to this topic

[Rob Bowman]

Vance,

You haven't read anything dealing with the exegesis of John 1:1 except some unnamed web source from which you copied and pasted a select list of translations that have "a god" or "divine" instead of "God" in 1:1c. I don't have the time to educate you about preverbal anarthrous predicate nouns, the use and nonuse of the article in Greek, the semantic range of theos in biblical Greek, and the like. If you showed some sincere interest in becoming informed on the subject, that would be different, but you have made it clear that you have no such interest. Therefore, for now, I will not waste my time, leaving you to continue crowing ignorantly and foolishly that I don't have any counterargument.

[jmordecai]

Vance, on 23 December 2010 - 03:53 PM, said:

Still waiting for the verse that says that the Father and the Son are one being.

Saying that They are one doesn't do it.  I and my wife are one.  Paul and Apollos are one (see 1 Cor 3:4-8 ).  "We being many are one", (see Rom 12:5, 1 Cor 10:17 & 12:12)

Are you your wife? Is she you?

Behold, I am Jesus Christ. I am the Father and the Son.
—The Book of Mormon, Ether 3:15

[Vance]

Hick Preacher, on 23 December 2010 - 03:51 PM, said:

Vance do you have a scripture that states that the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are One Godhead of Three separate Gods? or Three Separate Beings in one Godhead?

D&C 130:22 The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us.

[Vance]

Rob Bowman, on 23 December 2010 - 03:54 PM, said:

Vance,

You haven't read anything dealing with the exegesis of John 1:1 except some unnamed web source from which you copied and pasted a select list of translations that have "a god" or "divine" instead of "God" in 1:1c. I don't have the time to educate you about preverbal anarthrous predicate nouns, the use and nonuse of the article in Greek, the semantic range of theos in biblical Greek, and the like. If you showed some sincere interest in becoming informed on the subject, that would be different, but you have made it clear that you have no such interest. Therefore, for now, I will not waste my time, leaving you to continue crowing ignorantly and foolishly that I don't have any counterargument.

That is not a counter argument.  I can only presume that you are incapable of providing one.

[TAO]

Quote

Behold, I am Jesus Christ. I am the Father and the Son.
—The Book of Mormon, Ether 3:15

This is because Christ takes on the responsibilities of the Father.  They are still not one being.

Quote

Mosiah 15:2-4

2  And because he ^adwelleth in ^bflesh he shall be called the ^cSon of God, and having subjected the flesh to the ^dwill of the ^eFather, being the Father and the Son—

3  The Father, ^abecause he was ^bconceived by the power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and Son—

4  And they are ^aone God, yea, the very ^bEternal ^cFather of heaven and of earth.

Edited by TAO, 23 December 2010 - 04:05 PM.

[Vance]

jmordecai, on 23 December 2010 - 03:56 PM, said:

Are you your wife? Is she you?

Apparently in the trinitarian mind we is. Or is it, I are.

Quote

Behold, I am Jesus Christ. I am the Father and the Son.
—The Book of Mormon, Ether 3:15

Ah, yes, in what way is He the Father and in what way is He the Son.  Nothing there requires Jesus and God, the Father to be one being.

[Hick Preacher]

Vance, on 23 December 2010 - 03:53 PM, said:

Still waiting for the verse that says that the Father and the Son are one being.

Saying that They are one doesn't do it.  I and my wife are one.  Paul and Apollos are one (see 1 Cor 3:4-8 ).  "We being many are one", (see Rom 12:5, 1 Cor 10:17 & 12:12)

Vance,  See my above post-----The New Testament teaches that Jesus' Father was Jehovah, and we all know that Jesus too is Jehovah.  

On top it this there are Old Testament teaching where the Angel of the Lord was called YHWH, and said to be YHWH by YHWH's voice from Heaven. Like from Judges 6.

[Hick Preacher]

TAO, on 23 December 2010 - 04:05 PM, said:

This is because Christ takes on the responsibilities of the Father.  They are still not one being.

Hello TAO, please see my post above concerning Psalm 2:7 and Jesus being Jehovah and Jesus' Father being Jehovah too.

[jmordecai]

TAO, on 23 December 2010 - 04:05 PM, said:

This is because Christ takes on the responsibilities of the Father.  They are still not one being.

You left out verse 1, which states: God himself shall come down among the children of men, and shall redeem his people.

Then in context, verse 2, God manifest in the flesh shall be "called" the Son. The son is a label of God as flesh.

In verse 5, the flesh (son) subject to the Spirit (father)... or the son to the Father, being one God.

The passage states that Christ is the very Eternal Father for which the flesh is subjected to the Spirit.

Edited by jmordecai, 23 December 2010 - 04:22 PM.

[Vance]

Hick Preacher, on 23 December 2010 - 04:13 PM, said:

Vance,  See my above post-----The New Testament teaches that Jesus' Father was Jehovah, and we all know that Jesus too is Jehovah.  

The Biblical use of "Jehovah" is inconsistent. The Bible isn't inerrant.  The Bible isn't univocal.

Quote

On top it this there are Old Testament teaching where the Angel of the Lord was called YHWH, and said to be YHWH by YHWH's voice from Heaven. Like from Judges 6.

See above.

[TAO]

Hick Preacher, on 23 December 2010 - 04:16 PM, said:

Hello TAO, please see my post above concerning Psalm 2:7 and Jesus being Jehovah and Jesus' Father being Jehovah too.

Yes, Jehovah is a title - it refers to who has what responsibilities.  If I did some of the things Jehovah does, I could be called it too.

[jmordecai]

Vance, on 23 December 2010 - 04:07 PM, said:

Ah, yes, in what way is He the Father and in what way is He the Son.  Nothing there requires Jesus and God, the Father to be one being.

Your presupposition forces you to inject a condition into the text that isn't there.

By your logic, if I stated "I am a father and a son", you find nothing there to require that I am one being.

[jmordecai]

Vance, on 23 December 2010 - 04:22 PM, said:

The Biblical use of "Jehovah" is inconsistent. The Bible isn't inerrant.  The Bible isn't univocal.

Good thing we have the JST.

[Vance]

Jesus Christ is the Mediator.

Quote

mediator

MEDIA'TOR, n. One that interposes between parties at variance for the purpose of reconciling them.

To be the Mediator, Christ MUST be a separate party (being) from God, the Father.

1 Tim. 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

To us, Jesus, although separate from God, the Father, IS God, the Father, because He represents God, the Father, to us.

[TAO]

jmordecai, on 23 December 2010 - 04:21 PM, said:

You left out verse 1, which states: God himself shall come down among the children of men, and shall redeem his people.

Yes, God came down and redeemed his people.  Jesus is a God after all.

Quote

Then in context, verse 2, God manifest in the flesh shall be "called" the Son. The son is a label of God as flesh.

No, not called the Son.  Called the Son of God.  Because he was the one to dwell in the flesh.  And then the second part of the verse.  He subjects the flesh to the will of the Father.  Therefore, identifying too people - the one who is in the flesh subjecting it to the will of the other.

Quote

In verse 5, the flesh (son) subject to the Spirit (father)... or the son to the Father, being one God.

Correct, verse 5, God is a title.  If I did the things a God did, I could be called a God.

Quote

The passage states that Christ is the very Eternal Father for which the flesh is subjected to the Spirit.

As said, 'the very Eternal Father' is a title.  Please read verse 4.  The Father because he was conceived by God.  Are you saying God is conceiving himself, that seems rather awkward.

Please read verse 7 as well.

Quote

Yea, even so he shall be led, ^acrucified, and slain, the ^bflesh becoming subject even unto death, the ^cwill of the Son being swallowed up in the will of the Father.

The wills of the Father and Son are different.  That speaks of different individuals does it not?

Then read verse 8.

Quote

And thus God breaketh the ^abands of death, having gained the ^bvictory over death; giving the Son power to make ^cintercession for the children of men—

Thus, God is a title they share together.  But since their wills are different (Verse 7), they are not the same person.

[Hick Preacher]

TAO, on 23 December 2010 - 04:27 PM, said:

Yes, Jehovah is a title - it refers to who has what responsibilities.  If I did some of the things Jehovah does, I could be called it too.

TAO I like your kitty cat avatar.

The scriptures say that Jehovah is a personal name.

Quote

Ps 83:18  That men may know that thou, whose name alone is JEHOVAH, art the most high over all the earth.

Why do you think it is only a title?

[Hick Preacher]

Vance, on 23 December 2010 - 04:22 PM, said:

The Biblical use of "Jehovah" is inconsistent. The Bible isn't inerrant.  The Bible isn't univocal.


See above.

Even Joseph Smith addressed Jehovah as Heavenly Father in the dedication as seen in D&C 109.

[TAO]

Hick Preacher, on 23 December 2010 - 04:38 PM, said:

TAO I like your kitty cat avatar.

Thanks =^..^=

Quote

The scriptures say that Jehovah is a personal name.

I need a reference in the terms of 'personal'.

Quote

Why do you think it is only a title?

The Mosiah verse I pointed out.

[Hick Preacher]

TAO, on 23 December 2010 - 04:48 PM, said:

Thanks =^..^=



I need a reference in the terms of 'personal'.



The Mosiah verse I pointed out.

The personal name of Jehovah is mentioned only once in the Book of Mormon, in the Book of Moroni.

[Hick Preacher]

It appears that the Book of Mormon teaches that Christ is the Only God all and all.


2 Nephi 11:

Quote

7For if there be no Christ there be no God; and if there be no God we are not, for there could have been no creation. But there is a God, and he is Christ, and he cometh in the fulness of his own time.