The Sheep and the Goats (Matthew 25:31-46)

[Rob Bowman]

Vance,

Instead of quoting a passage and acting like it's obvious what the answer is, perhaps you could actually offer an explanation of how the passage supposedly answers my question.

If that wouldn't be too much trouble.

[Vance]

Rob,

Is your problem the usage of non-Biblical SCRIPTURE to answer your question?

Perhaps this will help.

Note:

Abraham was dead when Jesus taught this AND Jesus hadn't initiated the resurrection yet.

Luke 16:19

[zerinus]

zerinus,

No, I still don't see it. In fact, you seem to be distorting your own scripture, since your quotation from D&C 76 cuts off in the middle of a sentence and finishing the thought makes a difference. D&C 76 does not say that the people in the terrestrial kingdom will be thrust down to hell. It says this about those who go to the telestial kingdom. D&C 76:86 is not referring to these people as in the terrestrial kingdom, but as being ministered to by those who go to the terrestrial kingdom. Continuing the quotation through verses 87-90 would make that reasonably clear.

Okay, let

[Obiwan]

Just to add, that even D&C 76 doesn't tell the full story, for a literal interpretation of those verses alone will cause one to teach false doctrine. Reason being is because even those "not valiant in the testimony of Jesus" while in life still have a chance to make the Celestial Kingdom if they are valiant "after" they come to know Him. This is the reason we do Temple Work, so ALL might have a chance. D&C 76 makes it sound like these are the full facts, and these only will only go this place or that. The "when" is also important to who goes where.

But anyway Rob, I know you don't see it, but we see it. I know you think there is a "contradiction" between LDS Theology and the Bible, but there really isn't. There is only a contradiction because you simply do not understand LDS theology. We can actually see you know HOW you would think such, how you are making your judgments. But you just don't understand how it fits because you don't understand us. You don't live among us, play among us, study among us, and more importantly know the Holy Spirit among us which teaches ALL Truth. You're out their in your virtual world, having no access to the Holy Spirit as it is within mormonism. You study words, but have no understanding of the spirit behind them. Until you are truly teachable, instead of trying to find faults, God will show you nothing. You post faults day after day, and wonder why we tell you you don't get it.

[zerinus]

Just to add, that even D&C 76 doesn't tell the full story, for a literal interpretation of those verses alone will cause one to teach false doctrine. Reason being is because even those "not valiant in the testimony of Jesus" while in life still have a chance to make the Celestial Kingdom if they are valiant "after" they come to know Him. This is the reason we do Temple Work, so ALL might have a chance. D&C 76 makes it sound like these are the full facts, and these only will only go this place or that. The "when" is also important to who goes where.

I think you are being over-exact with that one. "Not valiant" means not valiant ever. There is no before and after about it.

But anyway Rob, I know you don't see it, but we see it. I know you think there is a "contradiction" between LDS Theology and the Bible, but there really isn't. There is only a contradiction because you simply do not understand LDS theology. We can actually see you know HOW you would think such, how you are making your judgments. But you just don't understand how it fits because you don't understand us. You don't live among us, play among us, study among us, and more importantly know the Holy Spirit among us which teaches ALL Truth. You're out their in your virtual world, having no access to the Holy Spirit as it is within mormonism. You study words, but have no understanding of the spirit behind them. Until you are truly teachable, instead of trying to find faults, God will show you nothing. You post faults day after day, and wonder why we tell you you don't get it.

I think he is perfectly capable of understanding us; but he chooses not to.

[CV75]

I would like to ask a question about Jesus' prophecy about the sheep and the goats in Matthew 25:31-46.

Verses 41 and 46 indicate that those that do not love the Lord according to the way described "shall go away into everlasting punishment" which is the same "everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels." Some, like the devil and his angels, experience more of this everlasting punishment than others who receive less than exaltation. God in perfect judgment and mercy ensures that His children receive that portion which their faith in the merits of Christ permit, whether it be a portion of eternal life or a portion of eternal punishment, depending on which line they cross or relate best to. Yes, the wicked go into eternal punishment, but the degree of it they receive and for how long are variable. These verses seem to be worded with only the most wicked of the wicked on the left hand, and the most faithful of the faithful on the right hand, for illustrative purposes and those who hear this will think about it and determine whether they are prepared to receive a portion of punishment or a portion of everlasting life, and how they can get what they really want.

[TAO]

In this passage, those who fail to do good works to Jesus' "brethren" will be told, "Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels" (v. 41). Jesus concludes, "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment" (v. 46). I don't see how this coheres with LDS eschatology, according to which people will not be consigned to everlasting punishment for a lack of such good works.

People aren't assigned to punishment because of a lack of good works. They are assigned to a lesser kingdom because of a lack of faith (and good works is a part of faith - if you don't have good works, you don't have faith). You are also punished for your sins.

Rather, everyone, except the very small group of sons of perdition, will receive immortal life in one of three glorious heavenly kingdoms.

This is explained well in the scripture zenirus provided.

Yet what Jesus says is not "Depart from me, you lazy bums, and go enjoy your immortal life in a lower heavenly kingdom."

No, but through his prophet Alma , he says this:

Alma 42:22-26

22 But there is a law given, and a ^apunishment affixed, and a ^brepentance granted; which repentance, mercy claimeth; otherwise, justice claimeth the creature and executeth the ^claw, and the law inflicteth the punishment; if not so, the works of justice would be destroyed, and God would cease to be God.

23 But God ceaseth not to be God, and ^amercy claimeth the penitent, and mercy cometh because of the ^batonement; and the atonement bringeth to pass the ^cresurrection of the dead; and the ^dresurrection of the dead bringeth ^eback men into the presence of God; and thus they are restored into his presence, to be ^fjudged according to their works, according to the law and justice.

24 For behold, justice exerciseth all his demands, and also ^amercy claimeth all which is her own; and thus, none but the truly penitent are saved.

25 What, do ye suppose that ^amercy can rob ^bjustice? I say unto you, Nay; not one whit. If so, God would cease to be God. UAdd a Note

26 And thus God bringeth about his great and eternal ^apurposes, which were prepared ^bfrom the foundation of the world. And thus cometh about the salvation and the redemption of men, and also their destruction and misery.

Also, did you not know that the Telestial and Terrestrial are so wonderful that we would die just to be in them if we knew how wonderful they were?

Nothing of the sort! Instead, he consigns them to the everlasting fire to suffer everlasting punishment alongside the devil and his angels.

Eternal and Endless because of his name. So also with the term 'everlasting'.

[Rob Osborn]

All,

I would like to ask a question about Jesus' prophecy about the sheep and the goats in Matthew 25:31-46. I understand that Mormons view this passage as posing a difficulty for evangelical soteriology (doctrine of salvation), since, as they see it, Jesus appears to make eternal life contingent on good works. But I would like to suggest that the passage also poses a difficulty for LDS eschatology. In this passage, those who fail to do good works to Jesus' "brethren" will be told, "Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels" (v. 41). Jesus concludes, "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment" (v. 46). I don't see how this coheres with LDS eschatology, according to which people will not be consigned to everlasting punishment for a lack of such good works. Rather, everyone, except the very small group of sons of perdition, will receive immortal life in one of three glorious heavenly kingdoms. Yet what Jesus says is not "Depart from me, you lazy bums, and go enjoy your immortal life in a lower heavenly kingdom." Nothing of the sort! Instead, he consigns them to the everlasting fire to suffer everlasting punishment alongside the devil and his angels.

How is this to be explained?

Somehow there are many who do not understand these verses. The first thing to do is to establish the time frame for this separation. Is it after death and before resurrection or is it after resurrection and judgment?

Let's look at the verses. It is quite tricky here because it appears that this separation of the right hand and the left happens at the beginning of the millennium. Here-

31

[volgadon]

How is this to be explained? Very simply. Jesus is not condemning those who do not do "good works." Jesus is condemning those who violated the covenant relationship (formulated in kinship terms) by not caring for their "kin." The fundamental aspect of being kinsmen was to reciprocate grace. If a brother was hungry, you were to feed him. If he thirsted (please come visit my family in Israel one July-August day and see for yourself) you were to give him something to drink. If one joined your group, you were to take him in as one of your kin. If one had nothing to wear, you were to provide him with clothing. If one was sick, or otherwise in dire straits, you were to visit him and bring what he lacked, or try and secure his release. By refusing to do these things for even the least important of the group along the social scale, it was as if you were doing it to the patron, or head kinsman himself. If the group would not take care of its own, what was the point in belonging to it? You see, we aren't talking about grace vs. works, we are talking about some of the most deeply offensive acts one could commit in an ancient society.

[zerinus]

How is this to be explained? Very simply. Jesus is not condemning those who do not do "good works." Jesus is condemning those who violated the covenant relationship (formulated in kinship terms) by not caring for their "kin." The fundamental aspect of being kinsmen was to reciprocate grace. If a brother was hungry, you were to feed him. If he thirsted (please come visit my family in Israel one July-August day and see for yourself) you were to give him something to drink. If one joined your group, you were to take him in as one of your kin. If one had nothing to wear, you were to provide him with clothing. If one was sick, or otherwise in dire straits, you were to visit him and bring what he lacked, or try and secure his release. By refusing to do these things for even the least important of the group along the social scale, it was as if you were doing it to the patron, or head kinsman himself. If the group would not take care of its own, what was the point in belonging to it? You see, we aren't talking about grace vs. works, we are talking about some of the most deeply offensive acts one could commit in an ancient society.

Luke 10

:

25 And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?

26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?

27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.

28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.

29 But he, willing to justify himself, said unto Jesus,

And who is my neighbour?

30 And Jesus answering said, A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment, and wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead.

31 And by chance there came down a certain priest that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side.

32 And likewise a Levite, when he was at the place, came and looked on him, and passed by on the other side.

33 But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion on him,

34 And went to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him.

35 And on the morrow when he departed, he took out two pence, and gave them to the host, and said unto him, Take care of him; and whatsoever thou spendest more, when I come again, I will repay thee.

36 Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves?

37 And he said,

He that shewed mercy on him

. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.

[Calm]

D&C 19 still acknowledges severe suffering, punishment, and torment for the wicked, albeit not without end. But as I understand it, the folks that end up in the terrestrial kingdom will not receive such torments or punishment. Furthermore, my understanding is that less noble or hardworking Mormons, who presumably do not do the good works described in Matthew 25:31-46, will make it into the terrestrial kingdom.

I think the assumption that not doing those good works as commanded (and not repenting at sometime in mortal life) would be likely candidates for the Terrestrial world rather than Telestial kingdom is faulty for God seems quite clear about how sinful he sees mistreatment of one's fellowman can be. That would seem to be a rejection of the gospel of Christ in action at its core, considering the various discussions of charity and other commandments such as honouring one's parents, etc.