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nickleus

geological evidence disproving global flood (noah)

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if the fact that the flood myth is found in many historical traditions besides the old testament:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deluge_%28mythology%29

isnt enough to convince you that the noah's ark story is just another implementation of the myth, there is now scientific proof that the global flood/deluge from the story of noah's ark never happened, thanks to the greenland ice sheet project:

The GISP2 Ice Core: Ultimate proof that Noah's flood was not global, by Paul H. Seely

but then again, it could just be satan hijacking science to get people to sin, become atheists and destroy the constitution...

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I like how the article states that there is 'strong evidence' that a global flood didn't happen and the title says they have 'ultimate proof' that there was no flood.

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I like how the article states that there is 'strong evidence' that a global flood didn't happen and the title says they have 'ultimate proof' that there was no flood.

when using the word "evidence", generally it is modified by either "weak", "semi-strong" or "strong". and maybe the author thought that repeating the same term in both the title and description would have sounded redundant.

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nickleus:

Evidence is one thing proof is quite another. I would agree that there is strong evidence against a world wide flood, and little to no evidence for it. But that is not ultimate proof.

Myself I believe it is a myth, but with a kernel of fact. I believe it was a very large but regional flood around the time of Noah. It fits the narrative and the science better than any other.

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found in many historical traditions besides the old testament

That it is found in so many different traditions supports that there was some sort of a flood.

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That it is found in so many different traditions supports that there was some sort of a flood.

the paper only claims that evidence shows there was no *global* flood in the last 40,000 to 110,000 years, while scriptures claimed there was one in the days of noah.

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the paper only claims that evidence shows there was no *global* flood in the last 40,000 to 110,000 years, while scriptures claimed there was one in the days of noah.

In the OP, you stated "if the fact that the flood myth is found in many historical traditions besides the old testament isnt enough to convince you that the noah's ark story is just another implementation of the myth.."

Changed is replying to that assertion by explaining that the fact that so many cultures have a global flood myth in their traditions is actually evidence in favor of the reality of a global flood, not against it.

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nickleus:

http://en.fairmormon.org/Mormonism_and_science/Global_or_local_Flood

Like other Christians, Latter-day Saints hold different views on the issue of whether Noah's flood was local or global. Members of any given LDS congregation may have of a variety of points of view, and many have no firm opinion one way or the other.

A belief in either a global or local flood is not a requirement for Latter-day Saints; traditionally, many earlier members and leaders endorsed the global flood views common in society and Christendom generally. The accumulation of additional scientific information have led some to conclude that a local flood

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Thanks,bluebell,I couldn't follow the logic on his statement either. Now if someone can just clear up the Lewis over-thrust problems for me...

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if the fact that the flood myth is found in many historical traditions besides the old testament:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deluge_%28mythology%29

isnt enough to convince you that the noah's ark story is just another implementation of the myth, there is now scientific proof that the global flood/deluge from the story of noah's ark never happened, thanks to the greenland ice sheet project:

The GISP2 Ice Core: Ultimate proof that Noah's flood was not global, by Paul H. Seely

but then again, it could just be satan hijacking science to get people to sin, become atheists and destroy the constitution...

That is it! I am leaving the church, Wikipedia and Paul H Sealy have sealed it for me! No flood, no church, no credibility left in the wisdom of the scriptures. Satan has triumphed, lets all go to watch football on Sunday! I can have hotdogs and pop corn while I worship!

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bluebell:

No, the common belief of any event is not evidence for it. At best that is an Argumentum ad Populum. Further religions and cultures have been borrowing ideas and beliefs from others around them for as long as more than one man has been around.

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if the fact that the flood myth is found in many historical traditions besides the old testament:

http://en.wikipedia....%28mythology%29

isnt enough to convince you that the noah's ark story is just another implementation of the myth, there is now scientific proof that the global flood/deluge from the story of noah's ark never happened, thanks to the greenland ice sheet project:

The GISP2 Ice Core: Ultimate proof that Noah's flood was not global, by Paul H. Seely

but then again, it could just be satan hijacking science to get people to sin, become atheists and destroy the constitution...

I personally don't believe there is enough water on the planet for a "global flood". I have a hard time believeing the idea that Noah's Ark is around the 15,000 foot mark on Mount Ararat in Turkey. I think there is good cause for belief that if there was a flood, it was regional. I doubt that mankind was spread wide enough for the flood to have been "global" as we understand it.

In any case, I don't see any reason for the understanding of man to shake your testamony in Jesus Christ.

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if the fact that the flood myth is found in many historical traditions besides the old testament:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deluge_%28mythology%29

isnt enough to convince you that the noah's ark story is just another implementation of the myth, there is now scientific proof that the global flood/deluge from the story of noah's ark never happened, thanks to the greenland ice sheet project:

The GISP2 Ice Core: Ultimate proof that Noah's flood was not global, by Paul H. Seely

but then again, it could just be satan hijacking science to get people to sin, become atheists and destroy the constitution...

And here we see the solemn execution of a strawman, a skeptical gunslinger demonstrating his prowess by pricking a convenient soap bubble.

Those of us who see other possibilities in the texts will remain strangely unmoved at the busting of an irrelevant bubble.

The stories of the garden of Eden and the Flood have always furnished unbelievers with their best ammunition against believers, because they are the easiest to visualize, popularize, and satirize of any Bible accounts. Everyone has seen a garden and been caught in a pouring rain. It requires no effort of imagination for a six-year-old to convert concise and straightforward Sunday-school recitals into the vivid images that will stay with him for the rest of his life. These stories retain the form of the nursery tales they assume in the imaginations of small children, to be defended by grownups who refuse to distinguish between childlike faith and thinking as a child when it is time to "put away childish things." (1 Corinthians 13:11.)

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/transcripts/?id=73

And Duane Jeffery here, provides a useful survey of various interpretations, and newer possibilities.

https://www.sunstonemagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/sbi/articles/134-27-45.pdf

Kevin Christensen

Pittsburgh, PA

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bluebell:

No, the common belief of any event is not evidence for it. At best that is an Argumentum ad Populum. Further religions and cultures have been borrowing ideas and beliefs from others around them for as long as more than one man has been around.

Obviously the popularity of an argument isn't always evidence in favor of it but with this topic, i believe it is. Regardless, it's certainly not evidence against it.

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bluebell:

The people whom we believe wrote the bible did not have the Flood Story until after their Babylonian captivity. In any event stories are not considered evidence in any scientific sense of the word.

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Global flood? Absobatoooootly! :P

Peace,

Ceeboo

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And here we see the solemn execution of a strawman, a skeptical gunslinger demonstrating his prowess by pricking a convenient soap bubble.

Those of us who see other possibilities in the texts will remain strangely unmoved at the busting of an irrelevant bubble.

http://maxwellinstit...nscripts/?id=73

And Duane Jeffery here, provides a useful survey of various interpretations, and newer possibilities.

https://www.sunstone...s/134-27-45.pdf

Kevin Christensen

Pittsburgh, PA

And yet we have prominent Church leaders who state with all seriousness that these and even more bizarre and unlikely events did, in fact, take place exactly as claimed in scripture and by Joseph Smith. And even more disturbing is that we have supposedly rational educated adults today who still believe that such events actually occurred as described.

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Ceeboo:

When religion make a claim about the physical world. Then religion has to expect blow back when that claim is unsupportable by the physical wold.

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There was never a global flood. There is not even the tiniest bit of doubt on that - it never happened. Chinese culture existed right before before and right after the flood, as did many other cultures around the world. There never was a global flood. According to the flood story, there was a dome over the earth that had water over it, and that was the source of the water. Which means also that the earth was flat. Sorry, that just isn't true.

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There was never a global flood. There is not even the tiniest bit of doubt on that - it never happened. Chinese culture existed right before before and right after the flood, as did many other cultures around the world. There never was a global flood. According to the flood story, there was a dome over the earth that had water over it, and that was the source of the water. Which means also that the earth was flat. Sorry, that just isn't true.

Thus saith Semlogo :P

There was indeed a global flood!

Peace,

Ceeboo

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This reminds me of the story of "the lost squadron", a group of planes including p-38's had to make an emergency landing on Greenland during WW2. The crews were rescued but the planes remained. Then, some 50 years later they went in search of these rare warbirds only to not find them where they thought. After months and months of searching they finally found them a mile away from where they landed originally and also, get this- under 263' of ice! Let me repeat that- under two hundred and sixty three feet of ice! They ended up melting through the ice with a special tool and then took the plane apart and carried it to the surface in pieces where it hauled off and restored at a very high price. Here-

http://www.p38assn.org/glacier-girl-recovery.htm

Now certainly there are going to be those who claim that the planes were in an area where snow deposits quickly, but I ask this- how can we be sure just how fast snow did or did not fall over the period of thousands of years?

The greenland ice cores prove nothing other than it snows there and has for quite some time.

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And yet we have prominent Church leaders who state with all seriousness that these and even more bizarre and unlikely events did, in fact, take place exactly as claimed in scripture and by Joseph Smith. And even more disturbing is that we have supposedly rational educated adults today who still believe that such events actually occurred as described.

From experience to text to interpretation to recording to transmission to translation to reception to re-interpretation, there are steps and gaps. The interpretive phrase "exactly as claimed in scripture" leaves out all the steps. So does "such events actually occurred as described."

In 3 Nephi, Jesus says of his Old World disciples "They supposed they understood, and did not ask..."

D&C 1 states of church leaders "inasmuch as they erred, it shall be made manifest..."

Joseph Smith stated that the problem with creeds is that "creeds set up stakes and bounds to the work of the almighty, saying 'hitherto thou shalt come and no further.' (TPJS, 327).

He also stated that the LDS have a problem with accepting anything new.

But there has been a great difficulty in getting anything into the heads of this generation. It has been like splitting hemlock knots with a corn-dodger for a wedge, and a pumpkin for a beetle. Even the Saints are slow to understand. I have tried for a number of years to get the minds of the Saints prepared to receive the things of God; but we frequently see some of

them, after suffering all they have for the work of God, will fly to pieces like glass as soon as anything comes that is contrary to their traditions: they cannot stand the fire at all. (TPJS, 331)

The way I see it, having an LDS testimony does not mean that from the moment of my baptism at 8 years old in 1962, let alone from that Spring Day in 1820, that all truth, all knowledge of things as they are, as they were, and as they are to come was already bound on a shelf in a Big Book of What to Think. It just may be that there is further light and knowledge available if I choose to seek it, and that some of my preconceptions and expectations are subject to revision when I do.

Prophets, and by extension LDS authorities are not passive boxes with one input, (Eternal Unchanging, uninterpreted absolute Truth), and one output (the same). Consider the range of inputs and outputs that Alma describes:

Behold, I do not say that he will come among us at the time of his dwelling in his mortal tabernacle; for behold, the Spirit hath not said unto me that this should be the case. Now as to this thing I do not know; but this much I do know. . .

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Ceeboo:

As my elementary school teacher told us. "Show your work" meaning of course show me how you arrived at that answer.

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bluebell:

No, the common belief of any event is not evidence for it. At best that is an Argumentum ad Populum. Further religions and cultures have been borrowing ideas and beliefs from others around them for as long as more than one man has been around.

This can cut both ways TSTS. It could just as easily point to a common ancient event passed down in the oral traditions of the various tribes of the earth.

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Thus saith Semlogo :P

There was indeed a global flood!

Peace,

Ceeboo

Only if you accept the following:

The earth is flat

The earth is or was covered by a dome, over which sat the flood waters

The Chinese instantly rebounded with all their buildings and people intact seconds after the flood

Ditto on many other world cultures and peoples

The flood somehow didn't wipe out the living plants on the earth that are older than it

Noah was able to travel all over the world to gather up every species of animal, including polar bears and penguins

The flood somehow didn't affect any of the glaciers or ice caps that are older than it

The flood somehow happened, in fact, without leaving any trace of itself whatsoever on the earth.

So sure, if you can accept all that, there was a global flood. ;)

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