117 replies to this topic

[BookofMormonLuvr]

You sure are fired up about this whole thing LOAP. You're right, Meldrum is just a big crummy jerk who knows nothing about anything. You win, my friend.

Edited by BookofMormonLuvr, 15 December 2010 - 12:46 PM.

[LifeOnaPlate]

BookofMormonLuvr, on 15 December 2010 - 12:46 PM, said:

You sure are fired up about this whole thing LOAP. You're right, Meldrum is just a big crummy jerk who knows nothing about anything. You win, my friend.

Nope, not fired up. I've expressed feeling annoyed, though, which is different. Again, your response consists of labeling me in a negative fashion. As I mentioned earlier, it is a textbook case of being passive aggressive. I ask that you not put words in my mouth. I never said Meldrum was "a big crummy jerk who knows nothing about anything." I said I think his scholarship is very poor and I've talked about the circumstances behind the reviews of his work, though. These are the things you very consistently have avoided addressing (as well as why you feel 'curious and amused' about reviews of Meldrum's work).

Edited by LifeOnaPlate, 15 December 2010 - 01:09 PM.

[kolipoki09]

BookofMormonLuvr, on 15 December 2010 - 12:46 PM, said:

You sure are fired up about this whole thing LOAP. You're right, Meldrum is just a big crummy jerk who knows nothing about anything. You win, my friend.

"Big crummy jerk who knows nothing about anything." These were YOUR words, not LOAP's. I don't consider him "fired up" any more than anyone else who has addressed Meldrum's theories. I've seen the "big Boys at BYU" much more concerned with addressing apostates and those who hold a great deal of animosity toward the Church than a person with a few followers basing theories on pseudo-science. In fact, Meldrum's name is only mentioned in a total of five articles published through FARMS, three of which were in the same issue, and only one which offers an in-depth response. Greg Smith, who offers that response is not even associated with BYU.

Greg Smith studied research physiology and English at the University of Alberta before receiving his MD degree. When he is not practicing rural family medicine or training junior physicians, his research interests center on LDS plural marriage and the intersection of biology, the history of science, and faith.

Comparatively speaking, I've seen LDS scholars more concerned with Dan Vogel, Mike Quinn, and Brent Metcalfe, Thomas Murphy, Simon Southerton, Fawn Brodie, Carl Mosser, and Paul Owen than they are with Meldrum.

Meldrum has produced much more text maligning the "big boys at BYU" than his detractors spend on him combined. Meldrum takes scholarly criticism personally and it shows. Should LDS scholars be concerned about Meldrum? I think so. If a platoon sergeant started taking shots at fellow comrades in arms rather than refining his skills on the battlefield against an imposing enemy, I would be concerned too. Meldrum's research is a case of seriously misguided friendly-fire which undermines, rather than supports scholarly approaches to the Book of Mormon.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

Anijen, on 15 December 2010 - 11:51 AM, said:

CFR Out of curiosity where exactly in the text of the Book of Mormon do you find where it says it was in the US? I know it doesn't and it doesn't imply it either so I am wondering how you arrived to that conclusion.

Quote

2 Nephi 10:11

And this land shall be a land of liberty unto the Gentiles, and there shall be no kings upon the land, who shall raise up unto the Gentiles.


2 Nephi 1:7


Wherefore, this land is consecrated unto him whom he shall bring. And if it so be that they shall serve him according to the commandments which he hath given, it shall be a land of liberty unto them; wherefore, they shall never be brought down into captivity; if so, it shall be because of iniquity; for if iniquity shall abound cursed shall be theland for their sakes, but unto the righteous it shall be blessed forever.

The United States is the ONLY country that has never been ruled over by a king and has not brought down into captivity. Canada is still a subject of the British Crown , and every Latin American country has been in captivity to some dictator, despot, or military junta at some point in fairly recent history.

[kolipoki09]

BookofMormonLuvr, on 15 December 2010 - 06:45 PM, said:

The United States is the ONLY country that has never been ruled over by a king and has not brought down into captivity. Canada is still a subject of the British Crown , and every Latin American country has been in captivity to some dictator, despot, or military junta at some point in fairly recent history.

The verses you're quoting never specifically mention a country. They mention a "land." That "land" has indeed had several kings, and fallen into captivity several times though the United States as a country has not. The United States has also had its fair share of dictators, despots, and militants over the years, it's merely a matter of whether YOU choose to recognize them as such.

[Pahoran]

BookofMormonLuvr, on 15 December 2010 - 06:45 PM, said:

The United States is the ONLY country that has never been ruled over by a king and has not brought down into captivity. Canada is still a subject of the British Crown , and every Latin American country has been in captivity to some dictator, despot, or military junta at some point in fairly recent history.

Such as 1776, which is the earliest date at which British crown authority could reasonably be claimed to have relinquished control of what is now US territory.  Thus, in 1830, British control was still in living memory, and represented the bulk of American history.

The Nephites had a sequence of kings that persisted for centuries after 2nd Nephi; the Lamanites retained monarchial government throughout; judges and chief judges were elected for life; and various splinter groups also set up their own "kings" and nasty despots.  Whatever that conditional promise means, it surely does not mean that there will just never be no kings, nohow.

US-centrism is provincial, parochial and silly.  Try not to embarrass yourself any more.

Regards,
Pahoran

[Vance]

Can we let the Book of Mormon speak for itself?

1 Nephi 13:12 And I looked and beheld a man among the Gentiles, who was separated from the seed of my brethren by the many waters; and I beheld the Spirit of God, that it came down and wrought upon the man; and he went forth upon the many waters, even unto the seed of my brethren, who were in the promised land.

From http://www.solarnavi...er_columbus.htm

Quote

Some Facts About Christopher Columbus

In 1492, he left Spain for his first voyage. He landed in San Salvador at Cap-Haitien and returned home to Palos, Spain, in 1493.

In 1493, he left Spain for his second voyage. He landed on Marie-Galante, then went again in Cap-Haitien, St. Ann's Bay, and returned to Cadiz, Spain, in 1496.

In 1498, he left Spain for his third voyage. He landed in Santo Domingo, and returned home again to Cadiz, Spain in 1500.

In 1502, he left Spain for his fourth and final voyage. He landed on the Bay Islands off of Central America, Portobelo, and then returned home to Sanlucar, Spain, for the final time.

He later died in 1506.

Edited to add,
How do the Meldrumites explain this away?

Edited by Vance, 15 December 2010 - 08:27 PM.

[kolipoki09]

Pahoran, on 15 December 2010 - 07:14 PM, said:

US-centrism is provincial, parochial and silly.  Try not to embarrass yourself any more.

Regards,
Pahoran

Ultra-nationalism is something that permeates Meldrum's writings. Hence, why I have said before that Meldrum's work is a hybrid of Cleon Skousen and Kent Hovind.

[Muc'ul Ajwalil]

This guy looks almost suspiciously like BOMG from a month or two ago.

Columbus landed south of the present day United States.  And thank goodness he did.  The United States would NEVER had been had they landed in the present day USA.  The rule of the Spanish and Portuguese crowns was o eres catolico o eres muerto.  Not only that but the criollos y castas bajas were prohibited even from distributing literature, and the punishments were severe.  Keep in mind that La Inquisicion though terminated throughout most of Europe into the 17th Century, remained in play in the Spanish colonies until the 1830s.

[Brant Gardner]

I just reread Jacob's context around 2 Nephi 10:11. The entire framework is apocalyptic. One could argue that the intent is for the end of days and not relevant to an earlier time. It is also fascinating that this particular seeming denoucements of kings would come from Jacob, the brother of the king.

I wonder if the apocalyptic framework intends to contrast the worldly kings against the King of Kings of the last days?

[Scott Lloyd]

BookofMormonLuvr, on 15 December 2010 - 06:45 PM, said:

The United States is the ONLY country that has never been ruled over by a king and has not brought down into captivity. Canada is still a subject of the British Crown ....

With the constitutional monarchy/parliamentary democracy that is Canada's form of government, it could hardly be regarded as being in "captivity."

If there are any Canadians on this board, it surely must be news to them that they are living under despotic rule.

Edited by Scott Lloyd, 16 December 2010 - 05:30 AM.

[Anijen]

BookofMormonLuvr, on 15 December 2010 - 06:45 PM, said:

The United States is the ONLY country that has never been ruled over by a king and has not brought down into captivity. Canada is still a subject of the British Crown , and every Latin American country has been in captivity to some dictator, despot, or military junta at some point in fairly recent history.

We are talking land not country. I see how you have to twist even change wording to reach your meaning. A land through time can be many different countries but the same land. This land has had kings although this country has not unless you count Elvis. Also their are countries presently out there who have never had a king could it be they were the book of Mormon lands? In those cases I am sure you would revert back to using "this land."  Hmm note to self use "this country" when it supports your model but use "this land" when eliminating others, I get it now.

[volgadon]

Quote

US-centrism is provincial, parochial and silly. Try not to embarrass yourself any more.

Indeed. One might argue that the Maximilian Adventure is just as much fulfilment of the prophecy as 1776 is.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

My last post in this topic...

Quote

1 Nephi 13


15And I beheld the Spirit of the Lord, that it was upon the Gentiles, and they did prosper and ^aobtain the ^bland for their inheritance; and I beheld that they were white, and exceedingly fair and ^cbeautiful, like unto my people before they were ^dslain.     UAdd a Note

16And it came to pass that I, Nephi, beheld that the Gentiles who had gone forth out of captivity did humble themselves before the Lord; and the power of the Lord was ^awith them.

17And I beheld that their mother Gentiles were gathered together upon the waters, and upon the land also, to battle against them.

18And I beheld that the power of God was with them, and also that the wrath of God was upon all those that were gathered together ^aagainst them to battle.

19And I, Nephi, beheld that the Gentiles that had gone out of captivity were ^adelivered by the power of God out of the hands of all other nations.

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[BookofMormonLuvr]

Muc, on 15 December 2010 - 09:15 PM, said:

This guy looks almost suspiciously like BOMG from a month or two ago.

'Tis not I.

Edit: Though, being familiar with his work, I do agree with him on a number (not all) of issues.

Edited by BookofMormonLuvr, 16 December 2010 - 10:13 AM.

[kolipoki09]

BookofMormonLuvr, on 16 December 2010 - 09:49 AM, said:

My last post in this topic...

Well, it wasn't your last post, and the  verses you've referred to don't necessarily and explicitly refer to the United States. In fact, almost every country in the New World has had large influxes of people from the "Old World" mixing in with the new, and those "new" countries fighting for their independence. In fact, the U.S. was in bondage for years. We put our own people in captivity. Crack open a history book and read about it some time. We fought a Civil War over it.

And Elvis WAS a king, if there ever was one.

[Pahoran]

kolipoki09, on 16 December 2010 - 11:22 AM, said:

Well, it wasn't your last post, and the  verses you've referred to don't necessarily and explicitly refer to the United States. In fact, almost every country in the New World has had large influxes of people from the "Old World" mixing in with the new, and those "new" countries fighting for their independence.

I believe there are a number of countries that regard Simon Bolivar as the great liberator.

kolipoki09, on 16 December 2010 - 11:22 AM, said:

In fact, the U.S. was in bondage for years. We put our own people in captivity. Crack open a history book and read about it some time. We fought a Civil War over it.

And Elvis WAS a king, if there ever was one.

IIRC, his last recorded decree was, "Treat me like a fool..."

Regards,
Pahoran

[LifeOnaPlate]

BookofMormonLuvr, on 16 December 2010 - 09:53 AM, said:

'Tis not I.

Edit: Though, being familiar with his work, I do agree with him on a number (not all) of issues.

Whoa, no need to get all fired up about it, geez.