99 replies to this topic

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

jesussavesbygrace, on 06 December 2010 - 10:59 AM, said:

So, I guess if you take it the way you are trying to protray what everlasting means than God is not actually going to be God forever right? Sometime in the future He is going to be something else.  C'mon...

Saying that God is not going to be God forever or that God will not be eternally God is vaslty differant thing then saying that God has not always been God.

Edited by Mola Ram Suda Ram, 06 December 2010 - 11:19 AM.

[Vance]

jesussavesbygrace, on 06 December 2010 - 10:50 AM, said:

Saying that there is no contradiction of the Bilble is hardly an answer. This is an apologectics board right?

I pose the same question to you about my first post...

Why don't you start at the OP and ACTUALLY READ the responses.

Acting like your question hasn't been addressed is making you look foolish and closed minded.

[jesussavesbygrace]

Mola Ram Suda Ram, on 06 December 2010 - 11:01 AM, said:

What this means is that God is unchanging in how he operates or in His principals. It does not mean that he is unchanged in every aspect from all eternity to all eternity. If you stick to such a rigid interpretation you are going to have massive issues even in your own theology.


Jesus did not always have a body. Jesus to you is God. Yet he changed and recieved a body a about 2000 years ago.

How do you come up with this principle?  From everlasting to everlasting means just that. From all time He was, He is, and will ever be God. Why is that concept so hard to grasp?

The "from everlasting to everlasting" is one problem, the second problem is how to you come up with God being a man first from Psalms 90:2?


Yes Jesus is God and should be to you. Not a god but thee God. When He came down to earth He was fully God and fully man. "Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to-day , and forever. Hebrews 13:8   "Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am." John 8:58  "I and my Father are one." John 10:30  Also John chapter 1: 1-14

Jesus claimed to be God because He is God. Again another concept that I don't know how the LDS community doesn't get.

[jesussavesbygrace]

Mola Ram Suda Ram, on 06 December 2010 - 11:19 AM, said:

Saying that God is not going to be God forever or that God will not be eternally God is vaslty differant thing then saying that God has not always been God.

Why does "from everlasting" have a beginning but "to everlasting" doesn't?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

jesussavesbygrace, on 06 December 2010 - 11:34 AM, said:

Why does "from everlasting" have a beginning but "to everlasting" doesn't?

I never said it did. Strawman alert.

[Vance]

jesussavesbygrace, on 06 December 2010 - 11:30 AM, said:

Yes Jesus is God and should be to you. Not a god but thee God. When He came down to earth He was fully God and fully man. "Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to-day , and forever. Hebrews 13:8   "Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am." John 8:58  "I and my Father are one." John 10:30  Also John chapter 1: 1-14

Jesus claimed to be God because He is God. Again another concept that I don't know how the LDS community doesn't get.

Oh, please!

So when the scriptures say "____ and ____ are one" means that the two are the same being?

Really? Is that the argument you want to make?

Edited by Vance, 06 December 2010 - 11:48 AM.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

jesussavesbygrace, on 06 December 2010 - 11:30 AM, said:

How do you come up with this principle?  From everlasting to everlasting means just that. From all time He was, He is, and will ever be God. Why is that concept so hard to grasp?

I am not the one having a hard time grasping a certine concept.

jesussavesbygrace, on 06 December 2010 - 11:30 AM, said:

The "from everlasting to everlasting" is one problem, the second problem is how to you come up with God being a man first from Psalms 90:2?

Who claimed that I or anyone else used 90:2 as evidence that God was a man?

You might actually benefit by reading the whole KFD before trying to comment on it.

jesussavesbygrace, on 06 December 2010 - 11:30 AM, said:

Yes Jesus is God and should be to you. Not a god but thee God. When He came down to earth He was fully God and fully man. "Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to-day , and forever. Hebrews 13:8   "Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am." John 8:58  "I and my Father are one." John 10:30  Also John chapter 1: 1-14

Uh no Jesus is not God the Father. Jesus and God being one does not mean they are metaphysically one. Consider John 17:20-21. Jesus desires all of us to be one as He and His Father are one. Does that mean he disires all of us to be metaphysically one?


20Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;    

21That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.    

jesussavesbygrace, on 06 December 2010 - 11:30 AM, said:

Jesus claimed to be God because He is God. Again another concept that I don't know how the LDS community doesn't get.

Jesus claimed to be Jehovah not God the Father. Another concept that you  and the rest of mainstream Christianity should get. Jesus is divine like his Father but he is not God the Father.

In other words Jesus is God in one sense and He is a God in another sense.

Edited by Mola Ram Suda Ram, 06 December 2010 - 01:35 PM.

[ELF1024]

jesussavesbygrace, on 06 December 2010 - 11:30 AM, said:

How do you come up with this principle?  From everlasting to everlasting means just that. From all time He was, He is, and will ever be God. Why is that concept so hard to grasp?

The "from everlasting to everlasting" is one problem, the second problem is how to you come up with God being a man first from Psalms 90:2?


Yes Jesus is God and should be to you. Not a god but thee God. When He came down to earth He was fully God and fully man. "Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to-day , and forever. Hebrews 13:8   "Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am." John 8:58  "I and my Father are one." John 10:30  Also John chapter 1: 1-14

Jesus claimed to be God because He is God. Again another concept that I don't know how the LDS community doesn't get.

Quote

Act 7: 54-56

54¶When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.
55But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
56And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

So Jesus is standing on his own hand?

Quote

Matthew 3:16

16And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

So Jesus landed on himself?

Quote

Luke 23:34

34¶Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.

Jesus was talking to himself?

The Nicean creed is wrong. It is incorrect. It is not supported by the Bible.

[ElfLord]

jesussavesbygrace, on 06 December 2010 - 11:30 AM, said:

Yes Jesus is God and should be to you. Not a god but thee God. When He came down to earth He was fully God and fully man. "Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to-day , and forever. Hebrews 13:8   "Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am." John 8:58  "I and my Father are one." John 10:30  Also John chapter 1: 1-14

Thats news to Jesus AND Paul!

Quote

John 20
¹⁷ Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”

Why would Jesus ascend to himself? and how can a God have a God?

Quote

1 Cor 15
¹² But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? ¹³ If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. ¹⁴ And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. ¹⁵ More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. ¹⁶ For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. ¹⁷ And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. ¹⁸ Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. ¹⁹ If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied.

²⁰ But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. ²¹ For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. ²² For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. ²³ But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. ²⁴ Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. ²⁵ For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. ²⁶ The last enemy to be destroyed is death. ²⁷ For he “has put everything under his feet.”^[c] Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. ²⁸ When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

If Christ is God, howcome he gives back all his power to his Father and how can he be "not included" in himself? And how can God be "subject" to himself?

Edited by ElfLord, 06 December 2010 - 12:07 PM.

[Ceeboo]

ELF1024, on 06 December 2010 - 11:57 AM, said:

The Nicean creed is wrong. It is incorrect. It is not supported by the Bible.

I am guessing that there are some human beings (at least 8 or 9 on this planet) that would disagree with you and would indeed consider the Nicean creed to be not only "correct" but they would hold that it is deeply cemented in Scripture.

Peace,
Ceeboo

[Ceeboo]

ElfLord, on 06 December 2010 - 12:03 PM, said:

Why would Jesus ascend to himself? and how can a God have a God?

Perhaps he's LDS?


Peace,
Ceeboo

[LeSellers]

Ceeboo, on 06 December 2010 - 12:15 PM, said:

I am guessing that there are some human beings ... that ... would hold that [the Nicean creed] is deeply cemented in Scripture.

We'd expect they could demonstrate this. No one has done so.

Lehi

[jesussavesbygrace]

Vance, on 06 December 2010 - 11:45 AM, said:

Oh, please!

So when the scriptures say "____ and ____ are one" means that the two are the same being?

Really? Is that the argument you want to make?

John 10:31 says "The Jews picked up stones again to stone Him." Its obvious that he was claiming to be God. So in essence you are saying that Jesus is a lunatic or a liar.

[ELF1024]

Ceeboo, on 06 December 2010 - 12:15 PM, said:

I am guessing that there are some human beings (at least 8 or 9 on this planet) that would disagree with you and would indeed consider the Nicean creed to be not only "correct" but they would hold that it is deeply cemented in Scripture.

Peace,
Ceeboo

Just goes to show that you can fool some of the people some of the time.

[Ceeboo]

LeSellers, on 06 December 2010 - 12:35 PM, said:

We'd expect they could demonstrate this. No one has done so.

Lehi

Pearls before swine???  


Peace,
Ceeboo

[ELF1024]

jesussavesbygrace, on 06 December 2010 - 12:44 PM, said:

John 10:31 says "The Jews picked up stones again to stone Him." Its obvious that he was claiming to be God. So in essence you are saying that Jesus is a lunatic or a liar.

Jesus is the Son of God, and a member of the Godhead, but he is not God the Father. He is not Eloheim. He is Jehovah.

[Ceeboo]

ELF1024, on 06 December 2010 - 12:44 PM, said:

Just goes to show that you can fool some of the people some of the time.

Indeed!


Peace,
Ceeboo

[jesussavesbygrace]

ELF1024, on 06 December 2010 - 11:57 AM, said:

So Jesus is standing on his own hand?



So Jesus landed on himself?



Jesus was talking to himself?

The Nicean creed is wrong. It is incorrect. It is not supported by the Bible.

All the scriptural quotes you gave me is when Jesus was speaking as a human. Like I said he was fully God and fully man. He also eat, drank, slept... Those are all human attributes. You get it.

Also, you did not refute any of my scriptural quotes. Face it, the mormon Jesus is not the Biblical Jesus.

[Vance]

jesussavesbygrace, on 06 December 2010 - 12:44 PM, said:

So in essence you are saying that Jesus is a lunatic or a liar.

Nice strawman.  Have fun wasting your time beating it up.

[jesussavesbygrace]

ELF1024, on 06 December 2010 - 12:45 PM, said:

Jesus is the Son of God, and a member of the Godhead, but he is not God the Father. He is not Eloheim. He is Jehovah.

What do you mean by "a member" of the Godhead?   Also what did He mean by "the Father and I are one?"