99 replies to this topic

[jesussavesbygrace]

Psalms 90:2 says "Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from Everlasting to Everlasting, thou [art] God."

Joseph Smith in his King Follet Discourse says "We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see."(History of the Church Vol. 6 pg. 305)

How do you explain Joseph's contradiction of the Bible?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

jesussavesbygrace, on 01 December 2010 - 09:30 AM, said:

Psalms 90:2 says "Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from Everlasting to Everlasting, thou [art] God."

Joseph Smith in his King Follet Discourse says "We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see."(History of the Church Vol. 6 pg. 305)

How do you explain Joseph's contradiction of the Bible?

There is no contradiction with the bible. That simple.

[David Bokovoy]

jesussavesbygrace, on 01 December 2010 - 09:30 AM, said:

Psalms 90:2 says "Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from Everlasting to Everlasting, thou [art] God."

Joseph Smith in his King Follet Discourse says "We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see."(History of the Church Vol. 6 pg. 305)

How do you explain Joseph's contradiction of the Bible?

First, Joseph Smith’s doctrinal views  do occasionally contradict biblical conceptions.  When this happens, Latter-day Saints believe that Joseph’s position was inspired and that the contrary expression reflects the philosophies of men mingled with scripture.

In terms of Psalm 90:2 it is important to note that the KJ phrase “from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God” is a translation of the Hebrew expression ‘atta (1st person common singular independent pronoun) followed by the noun ‘el or “god.”  Grammatically, the phrase literally means “you are a god,” which implies the existence of more than one deity.  Note the KJ translation of the exact same phrase in Isaiah 45:12 and Jonah 4:2:

“Verily thou art a God that hidest thyself, O God of Israel, the Saviour”

“And he prayed unto the LORD, and said, I pray thee, O LORD, was not this my saying, when I was yet in my country? Therefore I fled before unto Tarshish: for I knew that thou art a gracious God, and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repentest thee of the evil.”

So Latter-day Saints can reconcile this biblical passage with Joseph’s views under the premise that once our Father in Heaven was exalted as a God, he remained a God from “everlasting to everlasting.”

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

David Bokovoy, on 01 December 2010 - 10:11 AM, said:

So Latter-day Saints can reconcile this biblical passage with Joseph’s views under the premise that once our Father in Heaven was exalted as a God, he remained a God from “everlasting to everlasting.”

This is exactly right. I guess another term that comes to mind is "forever".

[Vance]

jesussavesbygrace, on 01 December 2010 - 09:30 AM, said:

Psalms 90:2 says "Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from Everlasting to Everlasting, thou [art] God."

Joseph Smith in his King Follet Discourse says "We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see."(History of the Church Vol. 6 pg. 305)

How do you explain Joseph's contradiction of the Bible?

How long is "everlasting"?

Genesis 49:26 The blessings of thy father have prevailed above the blessings of my progenitors unto the utmost bound of the everlasting hills: they shall be on the head of Joseph, and on the crown of the head of him that was separate from his brethren.

Habakkuk 3:6 He stood, and measured the earth: he beheld, and drove asunder the nations; and the everlasting mountains were scattered, the perpetual hills did bow: his ways are everlasting.

[David Bokovoy]

Vance, on 01 December 2010 - 10:31 AM, said:

How long is "everlasting"?

Genesis 49:26 The blessings of thy father have prevailed above the blessings of my progenitors unto the utmost bound of the everlasting hills: they shall be on the head of Joseph, and on the crown of the head of him that was separate from his brethren.

Habakkuk 3:6 He stood, and measured the earth: he beheld, and drove asunder the nations; and the everlasting mountains were scattered, the perpetual hills did bow: his ways are everlasting.

This is actually a very important observation.  The term "everlasting" in these passages and in Psalm 90 is a translation of the Hebrew word 'olam which the Koehler-Baumgartner Hebrew and Aramaic Lexicon of the Old Testament defines as "long time, duration (usually eternal, eternity, but not in a philosophical sense)."

Edited by David Bokovoy, 01 December 2010 - 10:46 AM.

[Hick Preacher]

upload goof-- sorry

Edited by Hick Preacher, 01 December 2010 - 10:48 AM.

[ElfLord]

Vance, on 01 December 2010 - 10:31 AM, said:

How long is "everlasting"?

Genesis 49:26 The blessings of thy father have prevailed above the blessings of my progenitors unto the utmost bound of the everlasting hills: they shall be on the head of Joseph, and on the crown of the head of him that was separate from his brethren.

Habakkuk 3:6 He stood, and measured the earth: he beheld, and drove asunder the nations; and the everlasting mountains were scattered, the perpetual hills did bow: his ways are everlasting.

Apparently... everlasting isn't long enough...

Heb 1
10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall awax old as doth a garment;
12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.

How does something that is described as "everlasting" or "eternal",  perish or wax old?

Edited by ElfLord, 01 December 2010 - 10:45 AM.

[Hick Preacher]

In the ancient Hebrew culture, the language had no term that directly, in one word expressed the idea of Eternity, Eternal or Everlasting.  In Psalm 90:2 the Hebrew word for Everlasting is olam-- which signifies the idea of something like a vanishing point on the horixon of the world-- or beyond sight from our worldly prespective, and implies in Psalm 90:2 from the beginning of the world or ages.  For example  Tikkun olam (Hebrew: ????? ?????) is a Hebrew phrase that means "repairing the world, with olam here meaning 'the world '- or this present age.

The English translators inserted the word Everlasting,(for olam) and this is what is called an interpolation. It is a pretty good one too- but not perfect. The French version of the word we articulate in English for Eternal was developed to be what it is today in around the 14th century.  And is closely associated with Ever lasting and  For Ever in the KJV.

Translators of the KJV so it appears replaced this literal 'vanishing point on the horizon' concept of the Hebrew olam-- with the English term Everlasting.  The reasoning behind this interpolation is very good. And would requires an elaborated explanation.  But what is amazing about this word "Eternal" is that it means that Eternal Life in our English Bible really would be more accurate and meaningful it translated  "Life of the Ages to Come"

So before doing an analysis of Joseph Smith's writings or understanding Mormonism such word translations need to be considered.

Edited by Hick Preacher, 01 December 2010 - 10:48 AM.

[Hick Preacher]

Mola Ram Suda Ram, on 01 December 2010 - 09:31 AM, said:

There is no contradiction with the bible. That simple.

Yes and No as far as a contradiction.

Joseph Smith's later usage of the term Eternal and Eternity can be a matter of great wonder, analysis, and discussion- and lead to great insights concerning Mormonism and Orthodox version of Christianity.
For example----The Book of Mormon describes God as being from all Eternity from Everlasting to Everlasting. This is in the Book of Mormon only One and Two pages away from the Book of Mormon Promise in Moroni.  This 'from everlasting to everlasting' attribute of God in the Book of Mormon is used to describe why God was able to see the future and make prophecy- to give men hope about the coming Christ.

When this is contrasted against the King Follet discouse-- it renders something about the Mormon universe , and something the Joseph Smith thought of the universe that is amazing-- and it is a missing dimension in Mormomism today-- and in the Christian world at large.-- it is the multivalence of the universe that Joseph Smith saw as a multiverse.

[Hick Preacher]

Vance, on 01 December 2010 - 10:31 AM, said:

How long is "everlasting"?

Genesis 49:26 The blessings of thy father have prevailed above the blessings of my progenitors unto the utmost bound of the everlasting hills: they shall be on the head of Joseph, and on the crown of the head of him that was separate from his brethren.

Habakkuk 3:6 He stood, and measured the earth: he beheld, and drove asunder the nations; and the everlasting mountains were scattered, the perpetual hills did bow: his ways are everlasting.

In a technical modern sense. For ever is all time.  But Eternity is beyond or above time.

This is even true in Mormonism


D&C 39: 22
  22 … and they shall be gathered unto me in time and in eternity  

D&C 72: 3
  3 And verily in this thing ye have done wisely, for it is required of the Lord, at the hand of every steward, to render an account of his stewardship, both in time and in eternity.

D&C 132:  18 And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife, and make a covenant with her for time and for all eternity,…

This all seems to be connected to a tiered universe-- where God dwells on one tier (beyond the ages or now termed Eternity), but we humans on another( in ages and dispensations) and angels on still another.  This goes way back into Old Old proto-Israel and the model seen with El-- the sons of Gods, angels and so forth on their various tiers. And is modeled in its own way in the Tiers of El and Baal of  the Canaanite idea of the cosmos.  This is also related to D&C 76, 88 and 93 were different heavenly spheres have different laws and truths.

Edited by Hick Preacher, 01 December 2010 - 11:12 AM.

[ElfLord]

Hick Preacher, on 01 December 2010 - 11:10 AM, said:

In a technical modern sense. For ever is all time.  But Eternity is beyond or above time.

Very true.  however "everlasting to everlasting" designates every thing in between or in other words "all time".

[Hick Preacher]

Mola Ram Suda Ram, on 01 December 2010 - 10:25 AM, said:

This is exactly right. I guess another term that comes to mind is "forever".

And a bit more than forever

The Psalm 90:2 can be seen as an actual overlap between Orthodox and Mormon cosmology.

The Psalm 90:2 interpolation is an orthodox expression of the notion of Eternal or Everlasting. So in order to get the fullest meaning out of the text you have to consider English, the history of the English word Everlasting, and the Hebrew word olan.  IMO the Hebrew olam as it is used infers that God and sons of God (bene elohim) existed before the ages of this present universe, world and heavens.  But the nature of what was beyond this universe is beyond the scope of our understanding.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Hick Preacher, on 01 December 2010 - 11:22 AM, said:

And a bit more than forever

The Psalm 90:2 can be seen as an actual overlap between Orthodox and Mormon cosmology.

The Psalm 90:2 interpolation is an orthodox expression of the notion of Eternal or Everlasting. So in order to get the fullest meaning out of the text you have to consider English, the history of the English word Everlasting, and the Hebrew word olan.  IMO the Hebrew olam as it is used infers that God and sons of God (bene elohim) existed before the ages of this present universe, world and heavens.  But the nature of what was beyond this universe is beyond the scope of our understanding.

I can agree with this. Try and think or comprehend of things eternally. A person can go nuts thinking about it.

[Hick Preacher]

ElfLord, on 01 December 2010 - 11:16 AM, said:

Very true.  however "everlasting to everlasting" designates every thing in between or in other words "all time".

Yes, but I think it implys with the full body of Biblical script that God and his associated sons (bene elohim) existed before time, before the worlds or ages.   And again this is aligned with a tiered universe-- that very Early Israel modeled before the exile. And which Joseph Smith modeled with the Three Degrees of Glory in the D&C.   Some of those tiers are within time or the ages, but the higher tiers represented the spheres of Eternity.

Anyway Psalm 90:2 with its everlasting to everlasting-- but is in Hebrew olam is suggestive of a before all time existence of God and His divine sons on a higher tier or sphere of existence.  While we are here in the realms of time.

I have this view because of the way that the New Testament writers attempted to express the ideas of Eternity (a modern word) in ancient Greek-- writing of God outside of time, creating time.

For Example

2 Tim 1: 9  Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, (Greek "pro chronon aionion"- before time began).

( ‘before the world began’ in Greek is "pro chronon aionion") - before the counting of time—that is before time began)

[CA Steve]

Mola Ram Suda Ram, on 01 December 2010 - 11:30 AM, said:

I can agree with this. Try and think or comprehend of things eternally. A person can go nuts thinking about it.

And yet we make covenants which we agree to abide by that last for eternity. Do we even understand the enormity of what we are doing when we enter into these covenants?

[Hick Preacher]

Mola Ram Suda Ram, on 01 December 2010 - 11:30 AM, said:

I can agree with this. Try and think or comprehend of things eternally. A person can go nuts thinking about it.

Yes, we cannot comprehend this.

Modern theological thinkers have tried to explain this to people but it a brain twister.  It will ruin you career as a theologian to try and tell too many people these things.

From the third to fifth century the ECF tried to use Greek metaphysics ideas, representations and terms to explain a lot of this--that is why we have creeds.

Before the third century certain Christians tried to communicate this with secret endowment initiations.  We see this in the Gnostic gospels-- Dead Sea Scroll people before hand too.  It is part of the Great Mystery of Godliness, and from it can learn about the ultimate destiny of we humans in God's plans for is-- the NT term plan of the ages.

The Gospel of Judas has a very distorted version of the era before time began of the Gods and Gods in heir realms. The book is probably some distorted tradition of things that were alleged to be given to Judas from Christ. Nevertheless, is shows that this idea of a God before time, above time in a higher sphere/tier existed in ancient Christianity among even the Apostles of Christ.

[ElfLord]

Hick Preacher, on 01 December 2010 - 11:34 AM, said:

Yes, but I think it implys with the full body of Biblical script that God and his associated sons (bene elohim) existed before time, before the worlds or ages.   And again this is aligned with a tiered universe-- that very Early Israel modeled before the exile. And which Joseph Smith modeled with the Three Degrees of Glory in the D&C.   Some of those tiers are within time or the ages, but the higher tiers represented the spheres of Eternity.

Anyway Psalm 90:2 with its everlasting to everlasting-- but is in Hebrew olam is suggestive of a before all time existence of God and His divine sons on a higher tier or sphere of existence.  While we are here in the realms of time.

I have this view because of the way that the New Testament writers attempted to express the ideas of Eternity (a modern word) in ancient Greek-- writing of God outside of time, creating time.

For Example

2 Tim 1: 9  Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, (Greek "pro chronon aionion"- before time began).

( ‘before the world began’ in Greek is "pro chronon aionion") - before the counting of time—that is before time began)

I can agree with most of this. But... you have to admit that the world being created crossed the boundary, some of it being created prior to and some of it being created after time started being counted.  "The Lord said let there be light... and it was the ___ day..."

In the Bible we are told next to nothing about the little bit of time (ie everlasting) just before creation and very little about the time (ie everlasting) just after the ending.

[Hick Preacher]

CA Steve, on 01 December 2010 - 11:38 AM, said:

And yet we make covenants which we agree to abide by that last for eternity. Do we even understand the enormity of what we are doing when we enter into these covenants?

The Book of Mormon baptismal covenant, stipulated by Christ in 3 Nephi is an in time, in this sphere/tier of existence covenant. It appears to be monotheistic, and simi-consistent with the Creedal Trinity of the Fifth Century. The 20th Section of the D&C  in many ways is like a paraphrased Nicene Creed- it is the other place where LDS the Baptismal Covenant is legally stipulated.  An effort to harmonize this baptiamal ccovenant was done in 1916 by the LDS First Presidency, and  Apostle James Talmage. This "The Father and the Son': A Doctrinal Exposition of the First Presidency and the Twelve".  This declaration accommodated Eternal Progession ideas by retrofitting Book of Mormon interpretion to fit new consistent bland LDS theology. In effect this conflated or compressed the tiers of  Joseph Smith's spheres of existence and spheres of truth for each sphere.- and/or combined the Canaanite/Proto-Isreal's spheres into a univalent monistic universe.  This made Mormonism more consumable by the gentiles in the general public.

Edited by Hick Preacher, 01 December 2010 - 12:01 PM.

[David T]

I don't know how the poetry of the Psalms can be viewed in any way as establishing Theological facts about deity. They are useful and valuable for many things, but not as authoritative declarations of eternal unchanging doctrinal facts.

Edited by nackhadlow, 01 December 2010 - 12:05 PM.