Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

jesussavesbygrace

Psalms 90:2 and Joseph Smiths King Follet Discourse

Recommended Posts

In the same verse Peter says that 1000 years is also as a day. "But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day." So time on a higher tier is very different than this earth according to that.

Thanks Manswuatch--

I think that what Peter spoke of is consistent with an idea of a tiered universe, where we live separated from the Celestial Sphere/Tier. These tiers have great gulfs from one to another. So when Joseph Smith seemed to contradict God being strictly Eternal in the King Follett funeral sermon, he was trying to express an idea from the view point of a higher tier. Afterall, it was at a funeral (King Follett) were the deceased had passed to a another tier. Explaining things of some other sphere or tier is likely going to get confusing to disconnected outside audience.

Personally I have somewhat a different motion of these tiers than SLC UT Churched LDS folks. But, if you understand the notion of it, and see it in the Bible and other ancient texts-- it is much easier to understand Mormonism more accurately when you are not a Mormon.

Share this post


Link to post

There is no contradiction with the bible. That simple.

What? Joseph Smith said He was not God from all eternity and the Bible says He was. Can you explain your answer...

Share this post


Link to post

What? Joseph Smith said He was not God from all eternity and the Bible says He was. Can you explain your answer...

Um the bible does not say that God was God from all of eternity. Often time and I am assiming you mean eternity past. The scriptures never once use that term.

Everlasting to everlasting does not mean eternity past, it neve has and it never will.

Share this post


Link to post
How do you explain Joseph's contradiction of the Bible?

Because there are larger infinities and smaller infinities, there is no conflict with the Bible here.

Share this post


Link to post

What? Joseph Smith said He was not God from all eternity and the Bible says He was. Can you explain your answer...

It is rather obvious that you aren't paying attention.

Share this post


Link to post

Um the bible does not say that God was God from all of eternity. Often time and I am assiming you mean eternity past. The scriptures never once use that term.

Everlasting to everlasting does not mean eternity past, it neve has and it never will.

So what does everlasting to everlasting mean?

Share this post


Link to post

Because there are larger infinities and smaller infinities, there is no conflict with the Bible here.

Ok, then give me a definition of larger infinites and smaller infinites.

Share this post


Link to post

How long is "everlasting"?

Genesis 49:26 The blessings of thy father have prevailed above the blessings of my progenitors unto the utmost bound of the everlasting hills: they shall be on the head of Joseph, and on the crown of the head of him that was separate from his brethren.

Habakkuk 3:6 He stood, and measured the earth: he beheld, and drove asunder the nations; and the everlasting mountains were scattered, the perpetual hills did bow: his ways are everlasting.

Share this post


Link to post

This is actually a very important observation. The term "everlasting" in these passages and in Psalm 90 is a translation of the Hebrew word 'olam which the Koehler-Baumgartner Hebrew and Aramaic Lexicon of the Old Testament defines as "long time, duration (usually eternal, eternity, but not in a philosophical sense)."

Share this post


Link to post

How long is "everlasting"?

Genesis 49:26 The blessings of thy father have prevailed above the blessings of my progenitors unto the utmost bound of the everlasting hills: they shall be on the head of Joseph, and on the crown of the head of him that was separate from his brethren.

Habakkuk 3:6 He stood, and measured the earth: he beheld, and drove asunder the nations; and the everlasting mountains were scattered, the perpetual hills did bow: his ways are everlasting.

Not too long according to those verses.

Share this post


Link to post

It is rather obvious that you aren't paying attention.

Saying that there is no contradiction of the Bilble is hardly an answer. This is an apologectics board right?

I pose the same question to you about my first post...

Share this post


Link to post

How long is "everlasting"?

Genesis 49:26 The blessings of thy father have prevailed above the blessings of my progenitors unto the utmost bound of the everlasting hills: they shall be on the head of Joseph, and on the crown of the head of him that was separate from his brethren.

Habakkuk 3:6 He stood, and measured the earth: he beheld, and drove asunder the nations; and the everlasting mountains were scattered, the perpetual hills did bow: his ways are everlasting.

You have to look at the context of a verse. Obviously you do not have an endless amount of mountains. Its also like saying when your at the beach looking at the ocean and say "Wow, the ocean goes on forever."

So, I guess if you take it the way you are trying to protray what everlasting means than God is not actually going to be God forever right? Sometime in the future He is going to be something else. C'mon...

Share this post


Link to post

Could you also explain in the Book of Mormon where it says "For behold, God knowing all things, being from everlasting to everlasting, behold, he sent angels to minister unto the children of men, to make manifest concerning the coming of Christ; and in Christ there should come every good thing."Moroni 7:22 And also "For I know that God is not a partial God, neither a changeable being; but he is unchangeable from all eternity to all eternity." Moroni 8:18

What this means is that God is unchanging in how he operates or in His principals. It does not mean that he is unchanged in every aspect from all eternity to all eternity. If you stick to such a rigid interpretation you are going to have massive issues even in your own theology.

Jesus did not always have a body. Jesus to you is God. Yet he changed and recieved a body a about 2000 years ago.

Share this post


Link to post

You have to look at the context of a verse. Obviously you do not have an endless amount of mountains. Its also like saying when your at the beach looking at the ocean and say "Wow, the ocean goes on forever."

So, I guess if you take it the way you are trying to protray what everlasting means than God is not actually going to be God forever right? Sometime in the future He is going to be something else. C'mon...

I don't think they are talking about the quantity of the mountains but rather their life span, which is very short compared to eternal.

Share this post


Link to post

So, I guess if you take it the way you are trying to protray what everlasting means than God is not actually going to be God forever right? Sometime in the future He is going to be something else. C'mon...

Saying that God is not going to be God forever or that God will not be eternally God is vaslty differant thing then saying that God has not always been God.

Share this post


Link to post

Saying that there is no contradiction of the Bilble is hardly an answer. This is an apologectics board right?

I pose the same question to you about my first post...

Why don't you start at the OP and ACTUALLY READ the responses.

Acting like your question hasn't been addressed is making you look foolish and closed minded.

Share this post


Link to post

What this means is that God is unchanging in how he operates or in His principals. It does not mean that he is unchanged in every aspect from all eternity to all eternity. If you stick to such a rigid interpretation you are going to have massive issues even in your own theology.

Jesus did not always have a body. Jesus to you is God. Yet he changed and recieved a body a about 2000 years ago.

How do you come up with this principle? From everlasting to everlasting means just that. From all time He was, He is, and will ever be God. Why is that concept so hard to grasp?

The "from everlasting to everlasting" is one problem, the second problem is how to you come up with God being a man first from Psalms 90:2?

Yes Jesus is God and should be to you. Not a god but thee God. When He came down to earth He was fully God and fully man. "Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to-day , and forever. Hebrews 13:8 "Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am." John 8:58 "I and my Father are one." John 10:30 Also John chapter 1: 1-14

Jesus claimed to be God because He is God. Again another concept that I don't know how the LDS community doesn't get.

Share this post


Link to post

Saying that God is not going to be God forever or that God will not be eternally God is vaslty differant thing then saying that God has not always been God.

Why does "from everlasting" have a beginning but "to everlasting" doesn't?

Share this post


Link to post

Why does "from everlasting" have a beginning but "to everlasting" doesn't?

I never said it did. Strawman alert.

Share this post


Link to post

Yes Jesus is God and should be to you. Not a god but thee God. When He came down to earth He was fully God and fully man. "Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to-day , and forever. Hebrews 13:8 "Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am." John 8:58 "I and my Father are one." John 10:30 Also John chapter 1: 1-14

Jesus claimed to be God because He is God. Again another concept that I don't know how the LDS community doesn't get.

Oh, please!

So when the scriptures say "____ and ____ are one" means that the two are the same being?

Really? Is that the argument you want to make?

Share this post


Link to post

How do you come up with this principle? From everlasting to everlasting means just that. From all time He was, He is, and will ever be God. Why is that concept so hard to grasp?

I am not the one having a hard time grasping a certine concept.

The "from everlasting to everlasting" is one problem, the second problem is how to you come up with God being a man first from Psalms 90:2?

Who claimed that I or anyone else used 90:2 as evidence that God was a man?

You might actually benefit by reading the whole KFD before trying to comment on it.

Yes Jesus is God and should be to you. Not a god but thee God. When He came down to earth He was fully God and fully man. "Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to-day , and forever. Hebrews 13:8 "Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am." John 8:58 "I and my Father are one." John 10:30 Also John chapter 1: 1-14

Uh no Jesus is not God the Father. Jesus and God being one does not mean they are metaphysically one. Consider John 17:20-21. Jesus desires all of us to be one as He and His Father are one. Does that mean he disires all of us to be metaphysically one?

20Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

21That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

Jesus claimed to be God because He is God. Again another concept that I don't know how the LDS community doesn't get.

Jesus claimed to be Jehovah not God the Father. Another concept that you and the rest of mainstream Christianity should get. Jesus is divine like his Father but he is not God the Father.

In other words Jesus is God in one sense and He is a God in another sense.

Share this post


Link to post

How do you come up with this principle? From everlasting to everlasting means just that. From all time He was, He is, and will ever be God. Why is that concept so hard to grasp?

The "from everlasting to everlasting" is one problem, the second problem is how to you come up with God being a man first from Psalms 90:2?

Yes Jesus is God and should be to you. Not a god but thee God. When He came down to earth He was fully God and fully man. "Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to-day , and forever. Hebrews 13:8 "Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am." John 8:58 "I and my Father are one." John 10:30 Also John chapter 1: 1-14

Jesus claimed to be God because He is God. Again another concept that I don't know how the LDS community doesn't get.

Act 7: 54-56

54

Share this post


Link to post

Yes Jesus is God and should be to you. Not a god but thee God. When He came down to earth He was fully God and fully man. "Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to-day , and forever. Hebrews 13:8 "Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am." John 8:58 "I and my Father are one." John 10:30 Also John chapter 1: 1-14

Thats news to Jesus AND Paul!

John 20

17 Jesus said,

Share this post


Link to post

The Nicean creed is wrong. It is incorrect. It is not supported by the Bible.

I am guessing that there are some human beings (at least 8 or 9 on this planet) that would disagree with you and would indeed consider the Nicean creed to be not only "correct" but they would hold that it is deeply cemented in Scripture.

Peace,

Ceeboo

Share this post


Link to post
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×