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urroner

After What Event Does Christ's Word Count For EVs

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I think the majority view is that you should keep the commandments. However I know there are EVies out there that believe that it there is an age of Grace and a Church age were Jesus was specifically talking to the Jews and those commandments were ment solely for them.

I'm not familiar with this, but I don't know all of the many beliefs of various Evangelical sects.

As others have pointed out there appears to be a problem with this. As you know (or might not know) the only time Faith alone is used is when James uses it to tell us that it is dead if Faith is alone. One cannot be saved with out works. How can one be saved with out works if faith is dead being alone? And if one cannot be saved with out works how could works be a by product of salvation if you need works to make faith alive to be saved? What works are is a by product of faith. You cannot separate the 2. IOW a mer beleif will not save some one.

I'm not arguing for this particular view, but the belief is that saving faith will produce works. Works are the product of faith and if the works are not forthcoming, that person probably hasn't experienced true saving faith. But..it's not the works that save you. They are simply the product of true saving faith.

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It doesn't matter what it was "considered" to be. To say that the words of Christ have less importance to us than the words of Paul (as misinterpreted by EVs) is ridiculous.

Some would argue that LDS put the words of their prophets in front of Christ's. At the very least, they interpret Christ's words through their prophets.

That is what they say, just before they reject the clear and plain meaning of James' words in exchange for their misinterpreted words of Paul.

Why is it that you believe Paul is misinterpreted, rather than James? Because that believe fits in with what your church teaches. Not saying you're wrong - just saying that most people are not just taking the words of the Bible at face value. Everyone (almost) interprets through some filter or another (usually their own religious teachings).

Yes, that is what they say, just before they throw all but a few verses from Romans, Galatians and Ephesians under the EV bus. (At least when in a discussion with Mormons, they may talk differently amongst themselves, I wouldn't know.)

I have never seen that. None of the Bible is disregarded by either group, that I have seen (although, they each claim that about the other). Both Evangelicals and LDS have their own patterns of interpretation that are inclusive of the whole Bible. It all comes together and makes sense within their own particular system of belief. Where it gets messed up is when the two faiths try to discuss their beliefs with one another, each coming from such different perspectives that often neither understands the other.

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Some would argue that LDS put the words of their prophets in front of Christ's. At the very least, they interpret Christ's words through their prophets.

Mmm... I do think all people who worship Christ do this to some extent. Christ's words are even interpreted through the word's of the apostles much of the time, that they are.

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Mmm... I do think all people who worship Christ do this to some extent. Christ's words are even interpreted through the word's of the apostles much of the time, that they are.

Yes, I agree.

I was just commenting on Vance's comment that Ev's consider the words of Paul more important that the words of Christ. I think they believe that Paul's words were inspired by Christ, therefore, on equal ground with Christ's words, as if they came from Christ, himself. Kind of like the words of LDS prophets, when they are speaking for the Lord.

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This is a battered ball back and forth between Mormons and those of the EV/Protestant persuasion and I can only answer for myself here. On Judgment Day, what I personally believe, Biblically speaking in the end will either justify me or not. The same goes for others.

I would explain it this way in the following words of Jesus Himself:

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled (Matthew 5:17-18)

Then He said to them,

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You had me in total agreement up until this part.

I would argue Paul

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We Are Saved By True Grace [charis] Alone "Through" True [pistis] Alone. :P

Salvation Is In Jesus Christ The Person

Anakin7

LDS JEDI KNIGHT

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I was talking with a co-worker the other day and he started poking fun of me for being a Mormon and feeling that the commandments were very important to my salvation. He's Evangelical and this type of fun goes on at work and nobody takes it seriously.

Anyway, so I shot back with "If commandments weren't important, why did he say "If ye love me, keep my commandments?"

He said that Christ was talking to a bunch of Jews at the time who were under the Law of Moses and that at the time of his resurrection, it all changed and what was taught before then wasn't in force any more.

The conversation ended there because we had to go to another BOGSAT (Bunch Of Guys Sitting Around a Table) meeting.

So, do EVs really believe that this scripture was only meant for Jews living under the Law of Moses before Christ's resurrection and what is this about the teachings of Christ before the resurrection weren't in force after the resurrection? Was he telling me true EV doctrine or was it something that most EVs don't agree with?

EV

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Yes, I agree.

I was just commenting on Vance's comment that Ev's consider the words of Paul more important that the words of Christ. I think they believe that Paul's words were inspired by Christ, therefore, on equal ground with Christ's words, as if they came from Christ, himself. Kind of like the words of LDS prophets, when they are speaking for the Lord.

The bolded position is in clear contradiction to Bible scripture. I can show it to you if you like.

Nearly all of the authors of New Testament book claim ownership of those works. In fact, I don't find a single one of them that claim otherwise.

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I have never seen that. None of the Bible is disregarded by either group, that I have seen (although, they each claim that about the other). Both Evangelicals and LDS have their own patterns of interpretation that are inclusive of the whole Bible. It all comes together and makes sense within their own particular system of belief. Where it gets messed up is when the two faiths try to discuss their beliefs with one another, each coming from such different perspectives that often neither understands the other.

I was told by one of my Calvinist "friends" that we were wrong and going to hell because we don't do things like saying The Lord's Prayer and that we are told how to say it in the Bible and that that proves we don't follow the Bible and we are not following Christ. This guy is someone that is very strong in his Church, goes on Mission trips all over the world setting up Churches for his Church, etc. He "knows" the Bible and quotes it all the time.

I told him that Christ was showing the PATTERN to use to say prayers and not that we should follow His words 100% for the prayer. He just about dropped his chin on the floor. I then showed him the two different accounts of the same prayer that Crhist gave in Matt 6:9-13 and Luke 11:2-4 and asked him which was right and why he did not pray those words. He never answered.

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The bolded position is in clear contradiction to Bible scripture. I can show it to you if you like.

Nearly all of the authors of New Testament book claim ownership of those works. In fact, I don't find a single one of them that claim otherwise.

The New Testament authors don't claim to be speaking for Christ, you mean? Not "for" Christ, perhaps, but I know most Christians believe their words are inspired by God.

Please do show me what you mean.

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I was told by one of my Calvinist "friends" that we were wrong and going to hell because we don't do things like saying The Lord's Prayer and that we are told how to say it in the Bible and that that proves we don't follow the Bible and we are not following Christ. This guy is someone that is very strong in his Church, goes on Mission trips all over the world setting up Churches for his Church, etc. He "knows" the Bible and quotes it all the time.

I told him that Christ was showing the PATTERN to use to say prayers and not that we should follow His words 100% for the prayer. He just about dropped his chin on the floor. I then showed him the two different accounts of the same prayer that Crhist gave in Matt 6:9-13 and Luke 11:2-4 and asked him which was right and why he did not pray those words. He never answered.

Well...I would agree that we don't have to pray that exact prayer, but on the other hand, there is nothing wrong with praying it (either version)...it did come from Christ.

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The New Testament authors don't claim to be speaking for Christ, you mean?

What I mean is, the authors of the books of the New Testament take OWNERSHIP of those works.

For example;

2 Cor. 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints which are in all Achaia:

Eph. 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

Philip. 1:1 Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons:

Paul takes ownership of his letters.

1 Pet 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

2 Pet 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

Peter takes ownership of his letters.

Not "for" Christ, perhaps, but I know most Christians believe their words are inspired by God.

Inspired by God is not the same as authored by God or "God breathed".

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The Preeminence of Jesus.

From Deu 18:15

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Additional comments in light of the thread op:

So, do EVs really believe that this scripture was only meant for Jews living under the Law of Moses before Christ's resurrection and what is this about the teachings of Christ before the resurrection weren't in force after the resurrection? Was he telling me true EV doctrine or was it something that most EVs don't agree with?

Jesus

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Thank you urroner!

Zak, the thread op was directed at EV

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hey urroner

i hope you know that most of us believe the Scripture is clear that it is not a "should we " question. We are require to be holy. perfect.

the very existence of laws and commandments implies that we aren't holy. James is clear that to violate one is to violate them all.

So we are all guilty

hence our need for grace and mercy from our Savior.

Sadly too many of my stripe haven't studied the word. They have skipped the OT altogether and just studied Christ never fully understanding why we need to be "saved"

happy new year lynn

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It's a good job Mormon scripture and doctrine is so consistent...

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hey urroner

i hope you know that most of us believe the Scripture is clear that it is not a "should we " question. We are require to be holy. perfect.

the very existence of laws and commandments implies that we aren't holy. James is clear that to violate one is to violate them all.

So we are all guilty

hence our need for grace and mercy from our Savior.

Sadly too many of my stripe haven't studied the word. They have skipped the OT altogether and just studied Christ never fully understanding why we need to be "saved"

happy new year lynn

From Coolrok7 excellent post...

What does this mean?

God threatens to punish all who break these commandments. Therefore, we should fear His wrath and not do anything against them. But He promises grace and every blessing to all who keep these commandments. Therefore, we should also love and trust in Him and gladly do what He commands.

So much for Grace alone!

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