124 replies to this topic

[Vance]

I, having as much authority as Rob to declare doctrine and interpret scripture, hereby officially declare that Rob has lost on another point.

[Rob Bowman]

Vance,

Only in a fevered or juvenile mind could my observation that someone refused to address my arguments be an implicit admission that I "lost."

Vance, on 01 December 2010 - 08:25 PM, said:

An implicit admission that Rob lost.

[Vance]

Rob Bowman, on 01 December 2010 - 08:31 PM, said:

Vance,

Only in a fevered or juvenile mind could my observation that someone refused to address my arguments be an implicit admission that I "lost."

Oh Rob, you're so mature.  Is that why you can't bring yourself to admit that you are wrong?

[Vance]

Rob Bowman, on 01 December 2010 - 08:31 PM, said:

Vance,

Only in a fevered or juvenile mind could my observation that someone refused to address my arguments be an implicit admission that I "lost."

This is Rob, running away from this thread.

[PacMan]

Hick,

Quote

In one sentence of how an Evangelical becomes an authorized Leader—
Over all, it is most always by the Holy Ghost’s whisperings within a group of Mature Christians who sponsor and nurture a person into Spirit inspired leadership.

Evidences that a person is called of God and the Holy Ghost are manifold and integrated. Therefore I should elaborate on this a bit (but not comprehensively).

A person who belongs to an established assembly of Christians, who is sponsored(formally or informally), has credibility. This is because the sponsorship is based on the Holy Ghost based testimony of many other mature Christians. This testimony of a sponsored leader comes as a process of other Christian’s observations of spiritual gifts, and the worthiness of the observers and the candidate. First the candidate has to be seen as understanding and following the Bible and be a student of God’s word, and even a history of Christianity. Also this sponsored person (candidate) has to have been observed having Spiritual Gifts and talents associated with the sponsorship. And also this person has to be seen as a person who has God working in his/her life. God working in his/her life means that they do good works, are moral, worthy and faithful to their family and so forth (similar to the things asked by a Bishop and Stake President in a Temple recommend interview).

So you gain creditability from a group of people whom also have credibility, that got their credibility. . . .   See the problem?  Religion has killed more people via the inspirations of “revered” men.  The problem is that you’ve added to, rather than solve or simplify the slippery slope.  It’s also metaphysical.  And the authority others give to some is also, metaphysical.  There’s nothing to hold on to, to touch, or hold for security.  And we can both agree that there are religious Christian groups that have been run by the Charlatan, etc.  I don’t doubt that in today’s day and age, churches are trying to be more careful.  But the idea of “mature” leaders completely begs the question of, what in the world makes them mature?!  It’s a question that is perpetually begged, with no safety valve.  The system of laying on of hands is – if not perfect – a safety valve.

And I don’t want to be cynical, but many calls could be confused with indigestion.  Happens in our church too.  That’s why a solid, fail-proof system is needed to tie us authoritatively to people god as chosen, and not people that think they were chose by god.

Again, we will likely disagree here.  But being someone that is pretty smart, well-read, and goes about things pretty honestly, I can’t figure it out myself.  There’s people that can fool me.  And I can certainly fool a lot of people if I’d like.  And because I have faith in the ingenuity of the human spirit, even if used for wrong, it is clear in my mind that the Lord wouldn’t leave us to be ‘tossed to and fro.’  That’s why Ephesians stated there were prophets and apostles and teachers and evangelists, etc., until we come together in the unity of faith.  Now if God is going to give us those authorized servants, we need to know how to identify them.  And that’s the laying on of hands.  Again, not perfect, but it gets ride of many of the residual issues.

Again, we’ll have to disagree here.  But I simply couldn’t commit myself to an organization lacking such an insurance policy that is so well outlined in the bible.

PacMan

Edited by PacMan, 08 December 2010 - 11:13 PM.