129 replies to this topic

[SilverKnight]

nackhadlow, on 23 November 2010 - 05:36 PM, said:

So all gays must not have enough faith, or else God would tell them their thoughts were evil, and they'd just get over it.

Next we'll start hearing that Gays must have been less valiant in the pre-existence. Or perhaps they were fence-sitters. That's why they're born that way. Either way, they deserve all that's coming to them if they don't just repent when I tell them that their very nature is evil, right?

:sigh:

Remember who you are arguing with here.

Most totally understand where you are coming from.
I wish I shared your optimism with this issue.

[Hamba Tuhan]

nackhadlow, on 23 November 2010 - 05:36 PM, said:

Just as someone coming up to you and telling you your natural inclination to be attracted to women is evil would be laughable to you (and raise the question as to if that were true, why would God have allowed you to be born this way), this is how others feel.

I wouldn't find such a scenario 'laughable' at all.  I'm fully aware that my sexual orientation is a psycho-social construct, and I'm completely comfortable with that reality.  In fact, though I had very little to do with the forging of my sexual identity, this knowledge makes me feel powerful and free because, if there's any aspect of my sexuality which is not healthy--which is the case--I don't have to be stuck with it forever.  Now that makes me feel better.

Edited by Hamba Tuhan, 23 November 2010 - 05:56 PM.

[Ahab]

nackhadlow, on 23 November 2010 - 05:36 PM, said:

That's easy for a heterosexual man to say.

It's easy for anyone to say when they know the difference between good and evil.  I'm simply calling good good, and evil evil.

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I didn't say I disagree with you. I am , however, suggesting you try to understand the struggle others have that you don't. If we're not able to do this, we're no better than the Zoramites at their Rameumptom, thanking God for making us naturally more righteous and right than everyone who disagrees.

I do understand it, more than you know, and I'm simply calling what is evil "evil" because that's what it is and I don't see any good in tip toeing around on the issue.

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That's unfortunate.

Yes it is, but that basic message is still the truth.  People who don't stop doing evil things will suffer for them, sooner or later, and I'd rather they just do whatever it takes to avoid suffering for doing evil.

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You really don't get it.

No, I do get  it, and I'm now beginning to wonder if you really do.

Tell me:  Is it right to think homosexuality is actually evil?

Hint:  It is, even if you don't think so, and even if you don't like someone just coming out and saying so.

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Just as someone coming up to you and telling you your natural inclination to be attracted to women is evil would be laughable to you (and raise the question as to if that were true, why would God have allowed you to be born this way), this is how others feel.

Sometimes it is someone's feelings about something that need to be changed, as well as some of their other behaviors.

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It's not that simple. It really isn't.

Yes it is, and your attempts to overcomplicate the issue are not working with me.

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I haven't for second advocated that position. My intent has always been the question as how to sensitively and effectively present the message in a way that would assist those with gay and lesbian orientations to understand and want what God wanted for them.

God wants them to experience and enjoy all of the pleasures that go along with righteous sexual relationships while not getting involved with anything unrighteous... and yes, homosexual relationships (involving sexual activity between people of the same sex) are NEVER righteous.

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I tell you the love and deep feelings you have for your wife are evil, and that you should pray to ask God if that was true. Would you do it?

I already have, which is how I know you are full of crap to say such a thing is something that God would say.

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So all gays must not have enough faith, or else God would tell them their thoughts were evil, and they'd just get over it.

Faith is an assurance, so it's not as if they have no faith or a lack of faith, in general.  It could be that the only reason God hasn't assured them that homosexual relationships are evil is because they simply haven't talked with him about that specific issue while waiting for him to answer on that issue.

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Next we'll start hearing that Gays must have been less valiant in the pre-existence. Or perhaps they were fence-sitters. That's why they're born that way. Either way, they deserve all that's coming to them if they don't just repent when I tell them that their very nature is evil, right?

:sigh:

When it gets down to it, homosexuality is evil, bro, and I'm not the one who made it that way.  

I'm simply telling what it is, in regards to being either good or evil, regardless of anyone's reasons for wanting to give in to those impulses.

[california boy]

nackhadlow, on 23 November 2010 - 01:27 PM, said:

Actually, the specific avoidance of the terms was to get individuals to watch the film without prejudging and knowing exactly what it was about. Probably didn't happen, but that was the reason for my intentional vagueness in how the OP was phrased.

I have to admit, I did not watch the video before reading peoples thoughts on this subject.  I did however just watch the whole thing.  It is pretty moving.  Certainly something I identify with.  

I have to say, I am pretty skeptical that most Mormons would watch the whole video.  I wonder how many on this site that have commented have watched the WHOLE video.  Or did they just see the introduction and clicked off as soon as they got the subject matter.  

So at the end of your comment, tell us if you watched the whole video.  Not hard to do.  Just cut and paste the following note if you have.  

Yes, I watched the whole video.

[wenglund]

nackhadlow, on 23 November 2010 - 04:55 PM, said:

It a sign of Christ-like compassion to try to understand, and present the message in such a way as they will iunderstand, and have a desire to want what God wants.

Could you point out where Christ used such an alleged sin-tailored form of "compassion" that produced the results you suggest?

I ask because from what I can tell, Christ's message is generic/unirversal in its approach. It isn't tailored specifically to homosexuals, or adulterers, or pedaphiles, or alcoholics or drug addicts, etc.--and for good reason (not the least of which is to avoid sending mixed messages.)

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the question is, how do you do that?

To understand, you have to re-frame the question in a way relevant to you. What would need to happen for you to give up your heterosexual lifetyle, marriage, etc, if someone was telling you that was the Will of God? What would make you even want to ask God about it?

What if the very idea of God's Plan for your life, is, at your emotional core, emotionally repugnant to you?

In other words, how do we convince people that what they find good is bad and what they deem repugnant is good, and that what they view as up, is actually down, and vice versa?

To me, the answer is simple. We don't. Such changes in hearts and mind can only be affected by personal choice in response to the promptings of the Spirit and upon
hearing the declarations of the universal gospel message.

However, I am open to hearing your suggestion to the contrary.

Thanks, -Wade Engluhd-

Edited by wenglund, 23 November 2010 - 07:01 PM.

[wenglund]

california boy, on 23 November 2010 - 06:30 PM, said:

I have to admit, I did not watch the video before reading peoples thoughts on this subject.  I did however just watch the whole thing.  It is pretty moving.  Certainly something I identify with.  

I have to say, I am pretty skeptical that most Mormons would watch the whole video.  I wonder how many on this site that have commented have watched the WHOLE video.  Or did they just see the introduction and clicked off as soon as they got the subject matter.  

So at the end of your comment, tell us if you watched the whole video.  Not hard to do.  Just cut and paste the following note if you have.  

Yes, I watched the whole video.

Instead of scoffing at whether respondents have viewed the WHOLE video or not, could you speak to the issue of the thread? Specifically, is there a way that the LDS message of exaltation could be tailored so that you would be convince as a gay man to adhere, to the best of your abilities, to the precepts and commandments needed to attain that divine station?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Sky]

california boy, on 23 November 2010 - 06:30 PM, said:

I have to admit, I did not watch the video before reading peoples thoughts on this subject.  I did however just watch the whole thing.  It is pretty moving.  Certainly something I identify with.  

I have to say, I am pretty skeptical that most Mormons would watch the whole video.  I wonder how many on this site that have commented have watched the WHOLE video.  Or did they just see the introduction and clicked off as soon as they got the subject matter.  

So at the end of your comment, tell us if you watched the whole video.  Not hard to do.  Just cut and paste the following note if you have.  

Yes, I watched the whole video.

Yes, I watched the whole video.   They have made peace with their lives by embracing their homosexuality, which they feel is their true identity.

But this is not the case for everybody… some of us make peace with ourselves by choosing to stay active in the Gospel of Jesus Christ (which includes abstaining from same-sex relationships).  And it gets better for us, too!
  
Do our lives not also deserve some recognition, dignity, and respect?  The gay community will have none of it – they would have us believe that we are being delusional and living a lie.

[california boy]

Sky, on 23 November 2010 - 07:01 PM, said:

Yes, I watched the whole video.   They have made peace with their lives by embracing their homosexuality, which they feel is their true identity.

But this is not the case for everybody… some of us make peace with ourselves by choosing to stay active in the Gospel of Jesus Christ (which includes abstaining from same-sex relationships).  And it gets better for us, too!
  
Do our lives not also deserve some recognition, dignity, and respect?  The gay community will have none of it – they would have us believe that we are being delusional and living a lie.

You deserve upmost respect for the choices you have made from everyone.  I am happy it is working so well for you.  I think most gay and straight people would wish you well if your choices bring you peace and happiness.

[Hamba Tuhan]

nackhadlow, on 23 November 2010 - 04:55 PM, said:

To understand, you have to re-frame the question in a way relevant to you. What would need to happen for you to give up your heterosexual lifetyle, marriage, etc, if someone was telling you that was the Will of God? What would make you even want to ask God about it?

This brings back a poignant memory for me personally.  My companion and I had been meeting with GM for a number of weeks in her best friend's flat.  She liked what we were teaching her, but, in the previous lesson, we'd brought up the Law of Chastity.  This had thrown her for a loop, and she'd come back confused and hurt and a bit defiant.  And who could blame her?  As she explained it carefully and tenderly, the sexual relationship she had with her defacto partner was not wrong.  It was warm and comforting and safe.  It brought her feelings of peace and love. It gave her security.  She simply couldn't understand how/why God would want her to give that up.

Listening to her caused me intense sympathetic pain, and I cried along with her.  Still, we had a message to preach.  God DID want her to enjoy something warm and comforting and safe.  He DID want her to enjoy peace and love and security.  But He has a better way.  In short, our message was that, despite how good you have it now, it can get better.  Much, much better.

That's a hard message to communicate, though, especially when the better might not come until after years of loneliness and pain and a sense of loss.  Possibly not even in this life.  Seriously, what would make one 'even want to ask God about it?'

But thankfully, something does.  It's called the Spirit, and, upon our challenge, GM asked.  And He answered.  As a consequence, she walked away from her longterm partner and all that came along with that and was baptised about one month later.  I know personally that it was hard...really, really hard.  Back in my old mission more than a year later, I cried with her again--tears so emotionally hot that I feared they'd melt my cheeks--as she explained to me that she'd been disfellowshipped for going back to her former partner one painfully lonely night after a hellish week of despair and difficulty.

But it started to get better.  After she was back in full fellowship, I rejoiced with her when she rang me following her endowment in the Washington DC Temple to share what a beautiful experience that had been.  Six years later, when I was working in the Caribbean, she tracked me down and rang me up late one night following a family FHE on missionary work to thank me for bringing the supernal blessings of the gospel into her life.  'Family FHE?' I asked.  She'd met a lovely man in her stake, and they had married.  As she explained then, we had been right.  Her relationship now was better--indescribably so--than what she had given up years earlier.

I spoke to her again exactly 13 days ago via Facebook chat.  She spoke with gratitude for the Lord's blessings.  Things have not been easy in many ways.  Her son is very unwell.  She herself has recently had two surgical procedures.  But things are good, she said--better than she'd ever imagined in her wildest dreams that they could be.  She shared with me her witness of the reality of the Saviour and His power to change and to bless.

I'm happy for any degree of 'better' people find in their lives, but, having experienced what I have personally, I don't really fancy witholding the very best from people, either.

[california boy]

wenglund, on 23 November 2010 - 06:59 PM, said:

Instead of scoffing at whether respondents have viewed the WHOLE video or not, could you speak to the issue of the thread? Specifically, is there a way that the LDS message of exaltation could be tailored so that you would be convince as a gay man to adhere, to the best of your abilities, to the precepts and commandments needed to attain that divine station?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I have to say, you do ask a difficult question that quite honestly I do not have an answer to.  I tried for most of my life to find some kind of peace in living the church doctrine.  I would encourage anyone who is gay that feels at peace in the church to continue on that course.  I think the church can be very supportive for a lot of people that embrace it.  I certainly encourage my children in staying active in the church.

For me, I could not reconcile being gay with the plan of salvation.  We are told that our weaknesses that we have in this life will rise with us in the next.  I read that to mean I will always be gay.  There have been no revelations to suggest otherwise.  And I really have no desire to be married to a woman for eternity.  So while for most the Celestial Kingdom promises seem worth working toward, I did not.  And if you are not working toward that goal in the church, then what goal are you working towards?

So I choose to live a life of happiness and do all I can to be more Christ-like in the rest of my life.  I may not be able to be straight like Christ, but I can be loving, charitable, treat others with respect, and yes, be honest in my life.  It seems to be working much better for me. I still feel Gods love and I trust in that.

[Daniel2]

Sky, on 23 November 2010 - 07:01 PM, said:

...some of us make peace with ourselves by choosing to stay active in the Gospel of Jesus Christ (which includes abstaining from same-sex relationships).  And it gets better for us, too!
  
Do our lives not also deserve some recognition, dignity, and respect?  The gay community will have none of it – they would have us believe that we are being delusional and living a lie.

My view of your choices, Sky, align with California Boy's post on the subject--specifically:

california boy, on 23 November 2010 - 07:16 PM, said:

You deserve upmost respect for the choices you have made from everyone.  I am happy it is working so well for you.  I think most gay and straight people would wish you well if your choices bring you peace and happiness.

As far as I can tell, the two of us (who are members of "the gay community") have not belittled you for how you choose to exercise your agency.  I have many gay friends who share the same view of your choices, though CB and I are obviously the most immediately tangible examples right here on the board.  Our views are out of harmony with your expression that we of "the gay community" "would have none of it."

What disrespect have you experienced from others who disagree with your choice to embrace "the Gospel of Jesus Christ" as opposed a choice "to embrace your homosexuality"?

Moreover, what type of "recognition, dignity, and respect" do you believe you "deserve" (or, another way of saying it might be "what type of 'recognition, dignity, and respect' do you believe is warranted"), which you are not getting...?

Whether or not California Boy, I, or anyone else from "the gay community" personally believe that you are "being delusional" and "living a lie" is really totally irrelevant--just as the personal religious convictions of Wade, Ahab, or any other heterocentric Latter-day Saint who opposes same-sex relationships as sinful, evil, or abominable are irrelevant to my life.  They, after all, think I and CB are as "delusional" and are "living a lie" (we who are, according to both their and your belief, sons of God with inherently heterosexual eternal potential, deceived by a cunning and evil Lucifer) as you feel/fear that "the gay community" thinks of you.

Save for the power to raise my own voice in testimony of the inherent goodness of my life and the manner in which I love and express that love, I have no power to change their or your beliefs to the contrary.  The reverse is also true, of course.  And isn't it wonderful that neither of us have that power...?  Isn't it wonderful that, even though our laws allow for other viewpoints, our laws do not require mandatory alteration of our own personal beliefs to fall into alignment to the whim of others?

In my view, "respecting others' agency" does not mean compromising our own personal beliefs by being forced to agree with someone else.  Respect, however, does mean (in my view) that we allow others to choose to live their lives as they see fit, according to the strength of their own convictions, in spite of our disagreement with their chosen religious or relational life "style" (or lives).  In fighting equal civil marriage rights for gay couples, however, Latter-day Saints go far beyond allowing others to live as others believe--they seek to impose their own religious morality upon others who do not subscribe to their own belief.  Do you know of examples of "the gay community" seeking to strip you of any similar type of rights?   Are gays and lesbians calling upon you (or others who have or may have ever 'struggled with attraction to a member of your own gender") to remove, prevent, or prohibit your heterosexual civil marriage rights?

Hence my question: what type of "recognition, dignity, and respect" do you feel you are being denied...?

Darin

Edited by Darin, 23 November 2010 - 08:31 PM.

[Daniel2]

wenglund, on 23 November 2010 - 06:59 PM, said:

Specifically, is there a way that the LDS message of exaltation could be tailored so that you would be convince as a gay man to adhere, to the best of your abilities, to the precepts and commandments needed to attain that divine station?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

The answer to your question, Wade, is probably best answered by "For some, yes.  For others, no."

Sky would be an example of a gay man (or, as he might describe himself, one "who struggles or used to struggle with same-gender attraction") who feels that the LDS message is appealing enough for him to adhere, to the best of his abilities, to the precepts and commandments he believes God requires of him to attain the divine station, according to his (and your) belief.

For others, such as CB and I, the answer would simply be, "no... there doesn't seem to be a way that the LDS message of exaltation could be tailored to convince either of us, as gay men, to adhere, to the best of our abilities, to the precepts and commandments needed to attain your view of that divine station."

Sky would be a great individual to answer the question of what makes that journey worthwhile, for him--it would be presumptuous for any of the rest of us to presume to know or speak for what is working for him in this regard any better than he, himself, can.

Darin

Edited by Darin, 23 November 2010 - 08:24 PM.

[wenglund]

california boy, on 23 November 2010 - 07:33 PM, said:

I have to say, you do ask a difficult question that quite honestly I do not have an answer to.  I tried for most of my life to find some kind of peace in living the church doctrine.  I would encourage anyone who is gay that feels at peace in the church to continue on that course.  I think the church can be very supportive for a lot of people that embrace it.  I certainly encourage my children in staying active in the church.

For me, I could not reconcile being gay with the plan of salvation.  We are told that our weaknesses that we have in this life will rise with us in the next.  I read that to mean I will always be gay.  There have been no revelations to suggest otherwise.  And I really have no desire to be married to a woman for eternity.  So while for most the Celestial Kingdom promises seem worth working toward, I did not.  And if you are not working toward that goal in the church, then what goal are you working towards?

So I choose to live a life of happiness and do all I can to be more Christ-like in the rest of my life.  I may not be able to be straight like Christ, but I can be loving, charitable, treat others with respect, and yes, be honest in my life.  It seems to be working much better for me. I still feel Gods love and I trust in that.

I can respect this. I have come to learn from talking to people of many walks of life, that LDS exaltation, with all that it entails and requires, is not appealing to everyone, and may even be repelling to some. That, in part, is the beauty of the gospel. We each get to deside for ourselves what we wish to make of ourselves, and to some extent what-all we wish to have in the eternities. Christ makes this possible, particularly for those who wish to fully become like him and his Father.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[jadams_4242]

nackhadlow, on 23 November 2010 - 09:00 AM, said:

This was a recent message of hope created by staff members of Pixar.



How could we, as members of the Church of Jesus Christ, present the Gospel to the same individuals to whom this message is directed,  to address these same very real feelings of despair, loneliness, fear, lack of self worth? How can we present the message to help them feel at least the same freedom, joy, and hope expressed by those who are delivering the message?

If you were a missionary receiving a referral for an individual to whom this video was directed, knowing what you know by watching the video, what would be your loving approach to expressing the hope and joy of the Restored Gospel?

There's plenty of threads discussing how we should feel about such individuals, and judging their motives. But I haven't seen many topics exploring how we could effectively and lovingly present the message of the Gospel to address their specific concerns, doubts, despair, and very real feelings, in such a way that would bring comfort, and hope, a real assurance that, indeed, "It Gets Better".

Yes their trial is a very hard road to travel for sure; but there are millions of human beings suffer much harder adversities than being gay; i;e.. being born with severe physical deformaties..,severe mental deficencies, e;t;c....Yes The ONLY place gay people even have a chance of finding happiness is in Jesus Christ and his gospel.. does Christ condone anyone "acting" upon their temptations? absolutely not.....trials must be overcome by the individual with the lords guidance as he will bless any whom truely seek his help;; will he remove and change what the person feels inside from natuarl causes? probably not; but he will provide the path in which one must follow to find happiness and acceptance in this life and if one does overcome, will also find that happiness in the eternities thru the gospel... it is their for each and every one of us to receive no matter how difficult the trial, no matter how overwhelming and seemingly impossible.. It "IS" there to be available for everybody if only everybody tries,

[Sky]

To Darin and California Boy…

Thank you for your voice of support for my life choices, even though we differ.  I’m really not used to getting this from members and supporters of the LGBT community.  I am much more accustomed to getting the insinuation that I’m living a lie – including from some (who will remain nameless) on this board.

By me participating on this board, I am really just trying to let my perspective (and others like me) be heard.  Not all gays (to use your terminology) leave the Church.  Some of us are even happy.
    
If you are happy with your life choices, then I can respect that.  I won’t bother you or try to convince you otherwise.
  
I know all about the enormous dilemma that being gay and being a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints presents…some find peace only by leaving the Church and finding a same-sex partner.
          
Darin – I would rather not go any further in responding to your post, so I will call a truce.

[california boy]

jadams_4040, on 23 November 2010 - 08:38 PM, said:

Yes their trial is a very hard road to travel for sure; but there are millions of human beings suffer much harder adversities than being gay; i;e.. being born with severe physical deformaties..,severe mental deficencies, e;t;c....Yes The ONLY place gay people even have a chance of finding happiness is in Jesus Christ and his gospel.. does Christ condone anyone "acting" upon their temptations? absolutely not.....trials must be overcome by the individual with the lords guidance as he will bless any whom truely seek his help;; will he remove and change what the person feels inside from natuarl causes? probably not; but he will provide the path in which one must follow to find happiness and acceptance in this life and if one does overcome, will also find that happiness in the eternities thru the gospel... it is their for each and every one of us to receive no matter how difficult the trial, no matter how overwhelming and seemingly impossible.. It "IS" there to be available for everybody if only everybody tries,

I think I would have to disagree with you when you say "The ONLY place gay people even have a chance to finding happiness is in Jesus Christ and his gospel".  I think it would be more fair to say it is the ONLY place you and millions others find happiness.  I think there are many members that share this ethnocentric view.  It certainly does not make it true.  Personally I have found much more peace and happiness in keeping an arms length distance from the church.  I perfectly know what the consequences of that choice might be.  And even with that, I feel I will also be more happy in the life after as well.  And it doesn't mean I do not or can not have a relationship with Christ in this life as well. I do feel his love.  But then again, I think I would feel His love no matter what my circumstance might be.  His love is bigger than just the Mormon Church.  Yes it is difficult at times being gay as the video clearly points out.  But like the video also clearly states, many gay people do find peace and happiness.  

Did you watch the whole video?  Do you just wipe out their statements as being delusional?  Do you think you could make a video that would compel them to leave their loved ones, live a life without any deep relationships and hope for the best in the world to come would bring them more happiness than their current fulfilling lives?  Like the OP asked in the opening statement, the question of this thread is, what does the Mormon Church have to offer someone who is happy and at peace in his homosexuality that would be compelling for him to make a change. Do you think you would find happiness in a church that asked you to leave your wife/husband and live a life of isolation and loneliness where many of those members would always be looking at you as suspect?

[Jaybear]

Sky, on 23 November 2010 - 03:58 PM, said:

How about Ty Mansfield?

Who is Ty Mansfield.  While, I presume he is an openly gay mormon, what about him, makes him a role model.    

Quote

There are many others like him who are choosing to stay in the LDS Church - but they do not want to live their lives in the spotlight and endure the wrath from the gay community. They are just trying their best to do what they know is true.  Some are married and some are single.

In other words, they keep their heads down to avoid being ostracized. Just like gay kids do now. If you contrast the future the LDS Church offer for gays as you describe, with the exuberance for life of those shown on the video, the future you offer has no appeal.  

Quote

I reject the notion that a person in the LDS Church with same-gender attractions must be forever miserable.

Hardly a ringing endorsement. "Not all gays leave the Church. Some of us are even happy."

[semlogo]

Sky, on 23 November 2010 - 07:01 PM, said:

Yes, I watched the whole video.   They have made peace with their lives by embracing their homosexuality, which they feel is their true identity.

But this is not the case for everybody… some of us make peace with ourselves by choosing to stay active in the Gospel of Jesus Christ (which includes abstaining from same-sex relationships).  And it gets better for us, too!
  
Do our lives not also deserve some recognition, dignity, and respect?  The gay community will have none of it – they would have us believe that we are being delusional and living a lie.

You should make a video!

[california boy]

semlogo, on 24 November 2010 - 09:00 AM, said:

You should make a video!

If Sky did make a video, what would you want him to say in it that would give hope to the gay community?

[TAO]

california boy, on 27 November 2010 - 08:07 PM, said:

If Sky did make a video, what would you want him to say in it that would give hope to the gay community?

I'm not sure it would be so smart to aim the video at the gay community.  It would be smart to aim the video at the people in the Church struggling with this temptation.  And I'm sure Sky's story would help, in that case.

Either way, tis not our choice, I have secrets that I keep, and we should respect Sky's before suggesting he makes a video.