This was a recent message of hope created by staff members of Pixar.
How could we, as members of the Church of Jesus Christ, present the Gospel to the same individuals to whom this message is directed, to address these same very real feelings of despair, loneliness, fear, lack of self worth? How can we present the message to help them feel at least the same freedom, joy, and hope expressed by those who are delivering the message?
If you were a missionary receiving a referral for an individual to whom this video was directed, knowing what you know by watching the video, what would be your loving approach to expressing the hope and joy of the Restored Gospel?
There's plenty of threads discussing how we should feel about such individuals, and judging their motives. But I haven't seen many topics exploring how we could effectively and lovingly present the message of the Gospel to address their specific concerns, doubts, despair, and very real feelings, in such a way that would bring comfort, and hope, a real assurance that, indeed, "It Gets Better".
0
It Gets Better
Started by
David T
, Nov 23 2010 09:00 AM
129 replies to this topic
#1
David T
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Posted 23 November 2010 - 09:00 AM
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David T was formerly known here at MD&D as nackhadlow
David T was formerly known here at MD&D as nackhadlow
#2
Jaybear
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Posted 23 November 2010 - 09:37 AM
nackhadlow, on 23 November 2010 - 09:00 AM, said:
This was a recent message of hope created by staff members of Pixar.
How could we, as members of the Church of Jesus Christ, present the Gospel to the same individuals to whom this message is directed, to address these same very real feelings of despair, loneliness, fear, lack of self worth? How can we present the message to help them feel at least the same freedom, joy, and hope expressed by those who are delivering the message?
If you were a missionary receiving a referral for an individual to whom this video was directed, knowing what you know by watching the video, what would be your loving approach to expressing the hope and joy of the Restored Gospel?
There's plenty of threads discussing how we should feel about such individuals, and judging their motives. But I haven't seen many topics exploring how we could effectively and lovingly present the message of the Gospel to address their specific concerns, doubts, despair, and very real feelings, in such a way that would bring comfort, and hope, a real assurance that, indeed, "It Gets Better".
How could we, as members of the Church of Jesus Christ, present the Gospel to the same individuals to whom this message is directed, to address these same very real feelings of despair, loneliness, fear, lack of self worth? How can we present the message to help them feel at least the same freedom, joy, and hope expressed by those who are delivering the message?
If you were a missionary receiving a referral for an individual to whom this video was directed, knowing what you know by watching the video, what would be your loving approach to expressing the hope and joy of the Restored Gospel?
There's plenty of threads discussing how we should feel about such individuals, and judging their motives. But I haven't seen many topics exploring how we could effectively and lovingly present the message of the Gospel to address their specific concerns, doubts, despair, and very real feelings, in such a way that would bring comfort, and hope, a real assurance that, indeed, "It Gets Better".
Great video.
In answer to your question, you can't provide a similar message of hope, because gay and lesbian Mormons have no role models in the LDS Church, ergo no real assurance that it does indeed get better.
Edited by Jaybear, 23 November 2010 - 09:38 AM.
#3
semlogo
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Posted 23 November 2010 - 09:42 AM
Until our theology advances sufficiently in this area, we can't offer anything comparable.
"We have heard men who hold the Priesthood remark, that they would do any thing they were told to do by those who presided over them, if they knew it was wrong: but such obedience as this is worse than folly to us; it is slavery in the extreme; and the man who would thus willingly degrade himself, should not claim a rank among intelligent beings, until he turns from his folly...When the Elders of Israel will so far indulge in these extreme notions of obedience, as to teach them to the people, it is generally because they have it in their hearts to do wrong themselves, and wish to pave the way to accomplish that wrong; or else because they have done wrong, and wish to use the cloak of their authority to cover it with, lest it should be discovered by their superiors, who would require an atonement at their hands." - Joseph Smith
#4
Deborah
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Posted 23 November 2010 - 09:47 AM
semlogo, on 23 November 2010 - 09:42 AM, said:
Until our theology advances sufficiently in this area, we can't offer anything comparable.
Judges 4:4 And Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lapidoth, she judged Israel at that time.
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet
#5
semlogo
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Posted 23 November 2010 - 09:48 AM
Deborah, on 23 November 2010 - 09:47 AM, said:
Good grief! Our theology will not change on this. However, there is no reason for people to be treated unkindly or rejected by friends and family and that has nothing to do with theology.
It's already changed.
"We have heard men who hold the Priesthood remark, that they would do any thing they were told to do by those who presided over them, if they knew it was wrong: but such obedience as this is worse than folly to us; it is slavery in the extreme; and the man who would thus willingly degrade himself, should not claim a rank among intelligent beings, until he turns from his folly...When the Elders of Israel will so far indulge in these extreme notions of obedience, as to teach them to the people, it is generally because they have it in their hearts to do wrong themselves, and wish to pave the way to accomplish that wrong; or else because they have done wrong, and wish to use the cloak of their authority to cover it with, lest it should be discovered by their superiors, who would require an atonement at their hands." - Joseph Smith
#6
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Posted 23 November 2010 - 09:50 AM
nackhadlow, on 23 November 2010 - 09:00 AM, said:
This was a recent message of hope created by staff members of Pixar.
How could we, as members of the Church of Jesus Christ, present the Gospel to the same individuals to whom this message is directed, to address these same very real feelings of despair, loneliness, fear, lack of self worth? How can we present the message to help them feel at least the same freedom, joy, and hope expressed by those who are delivering the message?
If you were a missionary receiving a referral for an individual to whom this video was directed, knowing what you know by watching the video, what would be your loving approach to expressing the hope and joy of the Restored Gospel?
There's plenty of threads discussing how we should feel about such individuals, and judging their motives. But I haven't seen many topics exploring how we could effectively and lovingly present the message of the Gospel to address their specific concerns, doubts, despair, and very real feelings, in such a way that would bring comfort, and hope, a real assurance that, indeed, "It Gets Better".
How could we, as members of the Church of Jesus Christ, present the Gospel to the same individuals to whom this message is directed, to address these same very real feelings of despair, loneliness, fear, lack of self worth? How can we present the message to help them feel at least the same freedom, joy, and hope expressed by those who are delivering the message?
If you were a missionary receiving a referral for an individual to whom this video was directed, knowing what you know by watching the video, what would be your loving approach to expressing the hope and joy of the Restored Gospel?
There's plenty of threads discussing how we should feel about such individuals, and judging their motives. But I haven't seen many topics exploring how we could effectively and lovingly present the message of the Gospel to address their specific concerns, doubts, despair, and very real feelings, in such a way that would bring comfort, and hope, a real assurance that, indeed, "It Gets Better".
We can offer a similar message of hope through some very inspirational speakers who have gone through the same trials.
There are people out there in the the church who HAVE overcome this trial, and some of them ARE speaking up.
I think soon, we will come to a point, where there will be many who say, "I overcame my homosexual feelings and I'm Mormon!"
I give a hope for the future and a fight against the past, that I do.
...my religion is built on the belief system and I believe that God will always find a way to make things just and fair even though it seems impossible. I accept this axiom without proof because I believe and hope that it must be true and in my heart I know it's true. That' s my testimony... -- Ajax18
As anyone who has ever been around a cat for any length of time well knows, cats have enormous patience with the limitations of the human kind. -- Cleveland Armory ... I have studied many philosophers and many cats. The wisdom of cats is infinitely superior. -- Hippolyte Taine
[On what God will say of one's own spiritual valiance]... I'd be content if He could just say to me, "Well, you weren't completely worthless." - Nathair
As anyone who has ever been around a cat for any length of time well knows, cats have enormous patience with the limitations of the human kind. -- Cleveland Armory ... I have studied many philosophers and many cats. The wisdom of cats is infinitely superior. -- Hippolyte Taine
[On what God will say of one's own spiritual valiance]... I'd be content if He could just say to me, "Well, you weren't completely worthless." - Nathair
#7
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Posted 23 November 2010 - 09:51 AM
semlogo, on 23 November 2010 - 09:48 AM, said:
It's already changed.
How so? (Be Brief though, we can't derail thread).
Edited by TAO, 23 November 2010 - 09:51 AM.
...my religion is built on the belief system and I believe that God will always find a way to make things just and fair even though it seems impossible. I accept this axiom without proof because I believe and hope that it must be true and in my heart I know it's true. That' s my testimony... -- Ajax18
As anyone who has ever been around a cat for any length of time well knows, cats have enormous patience with the limitations of the human kind. -- Cleveland Armory ... I have studied many philosophers and many cats. The wisdom of cats is infinitely superior. -- Hippolyte Taine
[On what God will say of one's own spiritual valiance]... I'd be content if He could just say to me, "Well, you weren't completely worthless." - Nathair
As anyone who has ever been around a cat for any length of time well knows, cats have enormous patience with the limitations of the human kind. -- Cleveland Armory ... I have studied many philosophers and many cats. The wisdom of cats is infinitely superior. -- Hippolyte Taine
[On what God will say of one's own spiritual valiance]... I'd be content if He could just say to me, "Well, you weren't completely worthless." - Nathair
#8
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Posted 23 November 2010 - 09:52 AM
semlogo, on 23 November 2010 - 09:48 AM, said:
It's already changed.
Judges 4:4 And Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lapidoth, she judged Israel at that time.
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet
#9
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Posted 23 November 2010 - 09:54 AM
TAO, on 23 November 2010 - 09:51 AM, said:
How so? (Be Brief though, we can't derail thread).
The inclination itself used to be viewed as sinful. Also, they used to think you could go from gay to straight. That's progress.
"We have heard men who hold the Priesthood remark, that they would do any thing they were told to do by those who presided over them, if they knew it was wrong: but such obedience as this is worse than folly to us; it is slavery in the extreme; and the man who would thus willingly degrade himself, should not claim a rank among intelligent beings, until he turns from his folly...When the Elders of Israel will so far indulge in these extreme notions of obedience, as to teach them to the people, it is generally because they have it in their hearts to do wrong themselves, and wish to pave the way to accomplish that wrong; or else because they have done wrong, and wish to use the cloak of their authority to cover it with, lest it should be discovered by their superiors, who would require an atonement at their hands." - Joseph Smith
#10
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Posted 23 November 2010 - 09:54 AM
You know, I think it would be cool if we could somehow find several individual who would be willing to share their experiences... and put it into video... just to show people - It can be overcome!
...my religion is built on the belief system and I believe that God will always find a way to make things just and fair even though it seems impossible. I accept this axiom without proof because I believe and hope that it must be true and in my heart I know it's true. That' s my testimony... -- Ajax18
As anyone who has ever been around a cat for any length of time well knows, cats have enormous patience with the limitations of the human kind. -- Cleveland Armory ... I have studied many philosophers and many cats. The wisdom of cats is infinitely superior. -- Hippolyte Taine
[On what God will say of one's own spiritual valiance]... I'd be content if He could just say to me, "Well, you weren't completely worthless." - Nathair
As anyone who has ever been around a cat for any length of time well knows, cats have enormous patience with the limitations of the human kind. -- Cleveland Armory ... I have studied many philosophers and many cats. The wisdom of cats is infinitely superior. -- Hippolyte Taine
[On what God will say of one's own spiritual valiance]... I'd be content if He could just say to me, "Well, you weren't completely worthless." - Nathair
#11
semlogo
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Posted 23 November 2010 - 09:54 AM
TAO, on 23 November 2010 - 09:50 AM, said:
We can offer a similar message of hope through some very inspirational speakers who have gone through the same trials.
There are people out there in the the church who HAVE overcome this trial, and some of them ARE speaking up.
I think soon, we will come to a point, where there will be many who say, "I overcame my homosexual feelings and I'm Mormon!"
I give a hope for the future and a fight against the past, that I do.
There are people out there in the the church who HAVE overcome this trial, and some of them ARE speaking up.
I think soon, we will come to a point, where there will be many who say, "I overcame my homosexual feelings and I'm Mormon!"
I give a hope for the future and a fight against the past, that I do.
No one has done that, though.
"We have heard men who hold the Priesthood remark, that they would do any thing they were told to do by those who presided over them, if they knew it was wrong: but such obedience as this is worse than folly to us; it is slavery in the extreme; and the man who would thus willingly degrade himself, should not claim a rank among intelligent beings, until he turns from his folly...When the Elders of Israel will so far indulge in these extreme notions of obedience, as to teach them to the people, it is generally because they have it in their hearts to do wrong themselves, and wish to pave the way to accomplish that wrong; or else because they have done wrong, and wish to use the cloak of their authority to cover it with, lest it should be discovered by their superiors, who would require an atonement at their hands." - Joseph Smith
#12
semlogo
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Posted 23 November 2010 - 09:55 AM
TAO, on 23 November 2010 - 09:54 AM, said:
You know, I think it would be cool if we could somehow find several individual who would be willing to share their experiences... and put it into video... just to show people - It can be overcome!
Like Ted Haggard?
"We have heard men who hold the Priesthood remark, that they would do any thing they were told to do by those who presided over them, if they knew it was wrong: but such obedience as this is worse than folly to us; it is slavery in the extreme; and the man who would thus willingly degrade himself, should not claim a rank among intelligent beings, until he turns from his folly...When the Elders of Israel will so far indulge in these extreme notions of obedience, as to teach them to the people, it is generally because they have it in their hearts to do wrong themselves, and wish to pave the way to accomplish that wrong; or else because they have done wrong, and wish to use the cloak of their authority to cover it with, lest it should be discovered by their superiors, who would require an atonement at their hands." - Joseph Smith
#13
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Posted 23 November 2010 - 09:58 AM
semlogo, on 23 November 2010 - 09:54 AM, said:
The inclination itself used to be viewed as sinful. Also, they used to think you could go from gay to straight. That's progress.
Judges 4:4 And Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lapidoth, she judged Israel at that time.
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet
#14
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Posted 23 November 2010 - 10:00 AM
Deborah, on 23 November 2010 - 09:58 AM, said:
Actually acting on the inclination has always been viewed as sinful. And when you say "they" remember this was a general psychological philosophy, not a philosophy of the church, and it was individuals who wanted to live a normal family life who were willing to got thorough therapy to change. And yes I do believe some people did change and it is possible to do so, but most won't be able to in this life.
There is no credible evidence to suggest it's possible to change your sexuality. Obviously behavior can be changed radically.
"We have heard men who hold the Priesthood remark, that they would do any thing they were told to do by those who presided over them, if they knew it was wrong: but such obedience as this is worse than folly to us; it is slavery in the extreme; and the man who would thus willingly degrade himself, should not claim a rank among intelligent beings, until he turns from his folly...When the Elders of Israel will so far indulge in these extreme notions of obedience, as to teach them to the people, it is generally because they have it in their hearts to do wrong themselves, and wish to pave the way to accomplish that wrong; or else because they have done wrong, and wish to use the cloak of their authority to cover it with, lest it should be discovered by their superiors, who would require an atonement at their hands." - Joseph Smith
#15
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Posted 23 November 2010 - 10:01 AM
nackhadlow, on 23 November 2010 - 09:00 AM, said:
This was a recent message of hope created by staff members of Pixar.
How could we, as members of the Church of Jesus Christ, present the Gospel to the same individuals to whom this message is directed, to address these same very real feelings of despair, loneliness, fear, lack of self worth? How can we present the message to help them feel at least the same freedom, joy, and hope expressed by those who are delivering the message?
How could we, as members of the Church of Jesus Christ, present the Gospel to the same individuals to whom this message is directed, to address these same very real feelings of despair, loneliness, fear, lack of self worth? How can we present the message to help them feel at least the same freedom, joy, and hope expressed by those who are delivering the message?
As long as there are people like Boyd K Packer leading the church - never.
But I do see glimmers of hope among some of the younger leaders of the church.
Quote
If you were a missionary receiving a referral for an individual to whom this video was directed, knowing what you know by watching the video, what would be your loving approach to expressing the hope and joy of the Restored Gospel?
Currently the Restored Gospel offers no chance of lasting happiness for such individuals. We offer them an ultimatum: a life void of intimate romantic relationships, or condemnation. Right now they just don't fit into The Plan.
My advice to the missionaries would be to mercifully leave gays alone.
Edited by SilverKnight, 23 November 2010 - 10:01 AM.
No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path. One that we all must take.
The gray rain curtain of this world rolls back, and all turns to silver glass. And then you see it.
White shores. And beyond, a far green country, under a swift sunrise.
The gray rain curtain of this world rolls back, and all turns to silver glass. And then you see it.
White shores. And beyond, a far green country, under a swift sunrise.
#16
David T
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Posted 23 November 2010 - 10:10 AM
By Common Consent had a post back in October that created an intriguing scenario of Elders teaching a man about the Plan of Salvation, and how families could be together forever, and testifying to the man that he knew his family could be together. The individual claims he feels something in his heart, and invites the Elders over... and notes that his husband might not be so willing to hear a religious message.
Elders: "Your husband?"
Investigator: "...is that a problem?"
Based on what has been revealed, right now, there aren't many options as to where to go from there. The only way I can see it going would be perhaps that the Preach My Gospel discussion concerning the Plan of Salvation would, in the future, have expanded optional 'tracks' for destinational goals/vocations, which can be emphasized when it is clear there is no desire for the individual being taught to have an Eternal Heterosexual Family.
It would go like this:
Is investigator Heterosexual? Then, Lesson A ("Exaltation and Forever Families")
Homosexual, or no familiar desires? Then, Lesson B ("Salvation in the Celestial Kingdom").
LESSON B: Salvation in the Celestial Kingdom
The potential problem with this, is that we would see a decided ‘caste’ or 'vocation' system developed in our doctrine. The Angel Caste/Vocation are those unwilling, or who have no desires, to be heterosexually married. Their goal would be Salvation in the Celestial Kingdom. The Godhood caste/vocation are all the rest - whose goal would be Exaltation. However, both would be presented in the Church publications and conferences as honorable and noble goals.
Elders: "Your husband?"
Investigator: "...is that a problem?"
Based on what has been revealed, right now, there aren't many options as to where to go from there. The only way I can see it going would be perhaps that the Preach My Gospel discussion concerning the Plan of Salvation would, in the future, have expanded optional 'tracks' for destinational goals/vocations, which can be emphasized when it is clear there is no desire for the individual being taught to have an Eternal Heterosexual Family.
It would go like this:
Is investigator Heterosexual? Then, Lesson A ("Exaltation and Forever Families")
Homosexual, or no familiar desires? Then, Lesson B ("Salvation in the Celestial Kingdom").
LESSON B: Salvation in the Celestial Kingdom
- Focuses on their eternal goal/vocation as being a celibate angel who is Saved in perhaps the 2nd degree of the Celestial Kingdom, as in D&C 132:17.
- Scriptures on Celibacy would be emphasized, such as Matthew 19:12 (saying “For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother’s womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven’s sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.”) , and some of Paul’s teachings on the holiness of Celibacy.
- The ordinances of the temple, such as the endowment, and even sealings to parents, will be available to them, just not the ordinance of Eternal Covenant Marriage, which is reserved for those called to the vocation of Godhood. (The Covenant of the Law of Chastity have been explicitly ammended to refering to sexual relations with your spouse of the opposite gender)
The potential problem with this, is that we would see a decided ‘caste’ or 'vocation' system developed in our doctrine. The Angel Caste/Vocation are those unwilling, or who have no desires, to be heterosexually married. Their goal would be Salvation in the Celestial Kingdom. The Godhood caste/vocation are all the rest - whose goal would be Exaltation. However, both would be presented in the Church publications and conferences as honorable and noble goals.
Edited by nackhadlow, 23 November 2010 - 10:14 AM.
Improvement Era: A Blog About Mormon History, Doctrine, Culture, and Scripture
David T was formerly known here at MD&D as nackhadlow
David T was formerly known here at MD&D as nackhadlow
#17
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Posted 23 November 2010 - 10:13 AM
Deborah, on 23 November 2010 - 09:52 AM, said:
The church as a body is trying to get people to be more compassionate toward individuals. But that isn't a change either.
While I'm sure that LDS have members who deal with this, I definitely do not know any on a personal note. From my observations, it's hidden from everyone. From my POV, it's hard to be more compassionate towards individuals when you are not aware of who they are.
My 2 cents
"Change is inevitable, Growth is not"
In Honor of Anijen, the 2012 MD&D March Madness Champion "There once was a Pharisee named Saul, Who persecuted Christians with gall. Then God struck him blind And opened his mind, So he could recognize his true call."
In Honor of Anijen, the 2012 MD&D March Madness Champion "There once was a Pharisee named Saul, Who persecuted Christians with gall. Then God struck him blind And opened his mind, So he could recognize his true call."
#18
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Posted 23 November 2010 - 10:18 AM
semlogo, on 23 November 2010 - 09:54 AM, said:
The inclination itself used to be viewed as sinful. Also, they used to think you could go from gay to straight. That's progress.
Not from what I've seen...
...my religion is built on the belief system and I believe that God will always find a way to make things just and fair even though it seems impossible. I accept this axiom without proof because I believe and hope that it must be true and in my heart I know it's true. That' s my testimony... -- Ajax18
As anyone who has ever been around a cat for any length of time well knows, cats have enormous patience with the limitations of the human kind. -- Cleveland Armory ... I have studied many philosophers and many cats. The wisdom of cats is infinitely superior. -- Hippolyte Taine
[On what God will say of one's own spiritual valiance]... I'd be content if He could just say to me, "Well, you weren't completely worthless." - Nathair
As anyone who has ever been around a cat for any length of time well knows, cats have enormous patience with the limitations of the human kind. -- Cleveland Armory ... I have studied many philosophers and many cats. The wisdom of cats is infinitely superior. -- Hippolyte Taine
[On what God will say of one's own spiritual valiance]... I'd be content if He could just say to me, "Well, you weren't completely worthless." - Nathair
#19
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Posted 23 November 2010 - 10:19 AM
semlogo, on 23 November 2010 - 09:54 AM, said:
No one has done that, though.
Yah, I'm saying we should =D. Actually... hmmm... if I get to learn Adobe AfterEffects sometime... hmmmmm...
...my religion is built on the belief system and I believe that God will always find a way to make things just and fair even though it seems impossible. I accept this axiom without proof because I believe and hope that it must be true and in my heart I know it's true. That' s my testimony... -- Ajax18
As anyone who has ever been around a cat for any length of time well knows, cats have enormous patience with the limitations of the human kind. -- Cleveland Armory ... I have studied many philosophers and many cats. The wisdom of cats is infinitely superior. -- Hippolyte Taine
[On what God will say of one's own spiritual valiance]... I'd be content if He could just say to me, "Well, you weren't completely worthless." - Nathair
As anyone who has ever been around a cat for any length of time well knows, cats have enormous patience with the limitations of the human kind. -- Cleveland Armory ... I have studied many philosophers and many cats. The wisdom of cats is infinitely superior. -- Hippolyte Taine
[On what God will say of one's own spiritual valiance]... I'd be content if He could just say to me, "Well, you weren't completely worthless." - Nathair
#20
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Posted 23 November 2010 - 10:20 AM
semlogo, on 23 November 2010 - 09:55 AM, said:
Like Ted Haggard?
0.o Who is he?
...my religion is built on the belief system and I believe that God will always find a way to make things just and fair even though it seems impossible. I accept this axiom without proof because I believe and hope that it must be true and in my heart I know it's true. That' s my testimony... -- Ajax18
As anyone who has ever been around a cat for any length of time well knows, cats have enormous patience with the limitations of the human kind. -- Cleveland Armory ... I have studied many philosophers and many cats. The wisdom of cats is infinitely superior. -- Hippolyte Taine
[On what God will say of one's own spiritual valiance]... I'd be content if He could just say to me, "Well, you weren't completely worthless." - Nathair
As anyone who has ever been around a cat for any length of time well knows, cats have enormous patience with the limitations of the human kind. -- Cleveland Armory ... I have studied many philosophers and many cats. The wisdom of cats is infinitely superior. -- Hippolyte Taine
[On what God will say of one's own spiritual valiance]... I'd be content if He could just say to me, "Well, you weren't completely worthless." - Nathair
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