425 replies to this topic

[David Bokovoy]

I believe that quite frequently, Jesus’ Beatitudes in the Sermon on the Mount are misunderstood.  Jesus is not so much setting forth the requirements necessary for entering into the Kingdom as much as he is providing assurances for the poor and needy.  The proclamation that those who “mourn” will be happy in the kingdom of God does not establish mourning as a requisite for eternal life.  Instead, the Beatitudes seem to represent promises to the oppressed that when the kingdom of heaven comes, they will receive their reward. This perspective works well with the Savior’s summary of his mission in the Gospel of Luke:

“The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor… to preach deliverance to the captives…to preach the acceptable year of the Lord” (Luke 4:18-19)

The “captives” to whom Jesus refers are the “poor,” who due to their debt were traditionally in Near Eastern society bound into slavery.  To these individuals, Jesus states, “Blessed, (meaning literally “O how happy you will be”) in the Lord’s kingdom" (Matt. 5:3).  

Jesus’ statement, “blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled” is a similar promise that the poor who hunger and thirst will be taken care of in his kingdom (see Matt. 5:6).  The term “righteousness” in this passage is a translation of the Greek feminine noun dikaiosunen meaning “justice.”  It appears in the Septuagint as a cognate for the Old Testament term sedeq, which describes the “justice” that the righteous should impart to those held captive to the bonds of financial poverty:

“Do justice to the afflicted and needy. Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked” (Psalm 82:3-4)   Hence, Jesus promise to those who help the poor:   "blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy" (v. 7).

This same theme appears in modern revelation, where the Lord promises the poor that they will be "blessed/happy" in his kingdom:

"Wo unto you rich men, that will not give your substance to the poor, for your riches will canker your souls; and this shall be your lamentation in the day of visitation, and of judgment, and of indignation... For behold, the Lord shall come, and his recompense shall be with him, and he shall reward every man, and the poor shall rejoice" (D&C 56:16-19)

This interpretation of the Beatitudes works well with king Benjamin’s summary of Christian values as taught in the Book of Mormon:

“And also, ye yourselves will succor those that stand in need of your succor; ye will administer of your substance unto him that standeth in need; and ye will not suffer that the beggar putteth up his petition to you in vain, and turn him out to perish.  Perhaps thou shalt say: The man has brought upon himself his misery; therefore I will stay my hand, and will not give unto him of my food, nor impart unto him of my substance that he may not suffer, for his punishments are just—But I say unto you, O man, whosoever doeth this the same hath great cause to repent; and except he repenteth of that which he hath done he perisheth forever, and hath no interest in the kingdom of God” (Mosiah 4:16-19)

Note that Benjamin specifically states that individuals who refuse to give to the beggar under the guise that the person has not earned the right for help “hath no interest in the kingdom of God.”  

No wonder in his own efforts to build Zion, the kingdom of God, the Prophet Joseph sought diligently to establish a financial order that would eradicate poverty.  This effort is fundamental to the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Edited by David Bokovoy, 17 November 2010 - 10:22 AM.

[Brade]

Well, David, we recently learned in another thread that modern capitalism is God's divine order.  We also learned that a necessary condition of capitalism is that there must exist a sufficiently large group of people for whom it is necessary to sell their labor to capitalists.  Thus, on earth, as it is in heaven (or should it be "in heaven, as it is on earth?), we simply cannot allow it to be the case that it's not necessary for anyone to sell their labor to capitalists (i.e. eradicate poverty), else how would zion's economy work?

Edited by Brade, 17 November 2010 - 10:40 AM.

[volgadon]

And it fits the idea of covenant as a kinship term.

[frankenstein]

Brade, on 17 November 2010 - 10:35 AM, said:

Well, David, we recently learned in another thread that modern capitalism is God's divine order.  We also learned that a necessary condition of capitalism is that there must exist a sufficiently large group of people for whom it is necessary to sell their labor to capitalists.  

the philosophies of man were mingled with scripture to make you think that is the case.

[David T]

David Bokovoy, on 17 November 2010 - 10:19 AM, said:

No wonder in his own efforts to build Zion, the kingdom of God, the Prophet Joseph sought diligently to establish a financial order that would eradicate poverty.  This effort is fundamental to the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

I think the current Church leadership agrees.

"In fulfilling its purpose to help individuals and families qualify for exaltation, the Church focuses on divinely appointed responsibilities. These include helping members live the gospel of Jesus Christ, gathering Israel through missionary work, caring for the poor and needy, and enabling the salvation of the dead by building temples and performing vicarious ordinances." - Handbook 2:2.2

[David Bokovoy]

nackhadlow, on 17 November 2010 - 10:45 AM, said:

I think the current Church leadership agrees.

"In fulfilling its purpose to help individuals and families qualify for exaltation, the Church focuses on divinely appointed responsibilities. These include helping members live the gospel of Jesus Christ, gathering Israel through missionary work, caring for the poor and needy, and enabling the salvation of the dead by building temples and performing vicarious ordinances." - Handbook 2:2.2

Thanks, Bro.  I was really excited about this inspired change.

[CV75]

David Bokovoy, on 17 November 2010 - 10:19 AM, said:

a financial order that would eradicate poverty.  This effort is fundamental to the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

The resurrection accomplishes this even better, and yet it is the minimum level of salvation given to all.

[urroner]

I finally figured out that the "LofC" means "Law of Consecration."

[Vance]

Brade, on 17 November 2010 - 10:35 AM, said:

We also learned that a necessary condition of capitalism is that there must exist a sufficiently large group of people for whom it is necessary to sell their labor to capitalists.  

I think that "capitalism" is too often confused with "free enterprise".

And just what should government (be it secular or ecclesiastical) do with the indolent poor?

D&C 42:42 Thou shalt not be idle; for he that is idle shall not eat the bread nor wear the garments of the laborer.

Edited to add,
1 Tim. 5:8 But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.

Edited by Vance, 17 November 2010 - 01:17 PM.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Vance, on 17 November 2010 - 01:13 PM, said:

I think that "capitalism" is too often confused with "free enterprise".

And just what should government (be it secular or ecclesiastical) do with the indolent poor?

D&C 42:42 Thou shalt not be idle; for he that is idle shall not eat the bread nor wear the garments of the laborer.

Edited to add,
1 Tim. 5:8 But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.

Interesting.

[krose]

Vance, on 17 November 2010 - 01:13 PM, said:

And just what should government (be it secular or ecclesiastical) do with the indolent poor?

D&C 42:42 Thou shalt not be idle; for he that is idle shall not eat the bread nor wear the garments of the laborer.

Like those indolent elderly people living off Social Security benefits?

[Brade]

Quote

D&C 42:42 Thou shalt not be idle; for he that is idle shall not eat the bread nor wear the garments of the laborer.

First, is there a reason I should think that the intention behind that scripture was a commandment to poor people?  Does that scripture only speak to poor people?  Are there idle middle class?  Idle rich?  If so, does that scripture apply to them?

Also, how do we reconcile this:

Quote

Perhaps thou shalt say: The man has brought upon himself his misery; therefore I will stay my hand, and will not give unto him of my food, nor impart unto him of my substance that he may not suffer, for his punishments are just (say, because of his laziness)—But I say unto you, O man, whosoever doeth this the same hath great cause to repent; and except he repenteth of that which he hath done he perisheth forever, and hath no interest in the kingdom of God.

With this:

Quote

Thou shalt not be idle; for he that is idle shall not eat the bread nor wear the garments of the laborer.

Is idleness an exception to what King Benjamin supposedly said, so that if I find out that a beggar is lazy, then I ought not give him any aid?  To make his sermon clearer, should Benjamin have said this:

Quote

Perhaps thou shalt say: The man has brought upon himself his misery; therefore I will stay my hand, and will not give unto him of my food, nor impart unto him of my substance that he may not suffer, for his punishments are just — But I say unto you, O man, whosoever doeth this the same hath great cause to repent; and except he repenteth of that which he hath done he perisheth forever, and hath no interest in the kingdom of God, unless, I say, though knowest the man is idle.  For if he be idle, and if ye hath interest in the kingdom of God, then thou wilt stay thy hand and offer him naught, and God will smile upon thee.

Edited by Brade, 17 November 2010 - 01:40 PM.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

krose, on 17 November 2010 - 01:35 PM, said:

Like those indolent elderly people living off Social Security benefits?

Oh geeze. Yes that is what those scriptures really mean.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Brade, on 17 November 2010 - 01:39 PM, said:

First, is there a reason I should think that the intention behind that scripture was a commandment to poor people?  Does that scripture only speak to poor people?  Are there idle middle class?  Idle rich?  If so, does that scripture apply to them?

Anybody can be idle. Who ever claimed that being idle is just for the poor is a fool.

Brade, on 17 November 2010 - 01:39 PM, said:

Also, how do we reconcile this:



With this:



Is idleness an exception to what King Benjamin supposedly said, so that if I find out that a beggar is lazy, then I ought not give him any aid?  To make his sermon clearer, should Benjamin have said this:

So how does one reconcile it?
There appears to be a contradiction in our scriptures. Perhaps we can get a serious response to the reconciliation?

[krose]

Mola Ram Suda Ram, on 17 November 2010 - 01:40 PM, said:

Oh geeze. Yes that is what those scriptures really mean.

The question was less about any scripture than about how the poster interpreted it.

[BCSpace]

Quote

Well, David, we recently learned in another thread that modern capitalism is God's divine order. We also learned that a necessary condition of capitalism is that there must exist a sufficiently large group of people for whom it is necessary to sell their labor to capitalists. Thus, on earth, as it is in heaven (or should it be "in heaven, as it is on earth?), we simply cannot allow it to be the case that it's not necessary for anyone to sell their labor to capitalists (i.e. eradicate poverty), else how would zion's economy work?

Hence the scripture....

Wo unto you a poor men, whose hearts are not broken, whose spirits are not contrite, and whose bellies are not satisfied, and whose hands are not stayed from laying hold upon other men’s goods, whose eyes are full of greediness, and who will not labor with your own hands! D&C 56:17

Quote

"In fulfilling its purpose to help individuals and families qualify for exaltation, the Church focuses on divinely appointed responsibilities. These include helping members live the gospel of Jesus Christ, gathering Israel through missionary work, caring for the poor and needy, and enabling the salvation of the dead by building temples and performing vicarious ordinances." - Handbook 2:2.2

Quote

Thanks, Bro. I was really excited about this inspired change.

There's no change in doctrine here, or even emphasis.

[frankenstein]

a man went his way up to the city and while on his way he was accosted and abused.

A High Priest walked by and looked upon the man and said "You lazy indolent get yourself out of the ditch and clean yourself up"
A short time later a Elder walked by and looked upon the man and said  "Indolent cur, arise and clean thyself, I will not help you because you are doing nothing to help yourself."

[Brade]

BCSpace, on 17 November 2010 - 02:17 PM, said:

Hence the scripture....

Wo unto you a poor men, whose hearts are not broken, whose spirits are not contrite, and whose bellies are not satisfied, and whose hands are not stayed from laying hold upon other men’s goods, whose eyes are full of greediness, and who will not labor with your own hands! D&C 56:17

I don't see how that addresses the question I raised, which is this:  Does God's divine capitalism depend on it being necessary for some people to sell their labor to other people?  We learned in the other thread that capitalism depends on it being necessary for some people to have to sell their labor to other people, and so, in a certain sense, the system depends on their being poor people.  If God's glorious economy is capitalism, then does God's glorious economy depend on their being poor people?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

krose, on 17 November 2010 - 02:01 PM, said:

The question was less about any scripture than about how the poster interpreted it.

And how did the poster interpret it? I did not see an interpretaion there. I am more than willing to bet that he was not thinking of what you wrote or anything remotely close to it.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Brade, on 17 November 2010 - 02:23 PM, said:

I don't see how that addresses the question I raised, which is this:  Does God's divine capitalism depend on it being necessary for some people to sell their labor to other people?  We learned in the other thread that capitalism depends on it being necessary for some people to have to sell their labor to other people, and so, in a certain sense, the system depends on their being poor people.  If God's glorious economy is capitalism, then does God's glorious economy depend on their being poor people?

I do not think that "selling one's labour" was ever discussed. I also detect a hint of mockery in your post.