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David Bokovoy

The Sermon on the Mount and the LofC

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Well, David, we recently learned in another thread that modern capitalism is God's divine order. We also learned that a necessary condition of capitalism is that there must exist a sufficiently large group of people for whom it is necessary to sell their labor to capitalists. Thus, on earth, as it is in heaven (or should it be "in heaven, as it is on earth?), we simply cannot allow it to be the case that it's not necessary for anyone to sell their labor to capitalists (i.e. eradicate poverty), else how would zion's economy work?

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And it fits the idea of covenant as a kinship term.

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Well, David, we recently learned in another thread that modern capitalism is God's divine order. We also learned that a necessary condition of capitalism is that there must exist a sufficiently large group of people for whom it is necessary to sell their labor to capitalists.

the philosophies of man were mingled with scripture to make you think that is the case.

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No wonder in his own efforts to build Zion, the kingdom of God, the Prophet Joseph sought diligently to establish a financial order that would eradicate poverty. This effort is fundamental to the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

I think the current Church leadership agrees.

"In fulfilling its purpose to help individuals and families qualify for exaltation, the Church focuses on divinely appointed responsibilities. These include helping members live the gospel of Jesus Christ, gathering Israel through missionary work, caring for the poor and needy, and enabling the salvation of the dead by building temples and performing vicarious ordinances." - Handbook 2:2.2

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I think the current Church leadership agrees.

"In fulfilling its purpose to help individuals and families qualify for exaltation, the Church focuses on divinely appointed responsibilities. These include helping members live the gospel of Jesus Christ, gathering Israel through missionary work, caring for the poor and needy, and enabling the salvation of the dead by building temples and performing vicarious ordinances." - Handbook 2:2.2

Thanks, Bro. I was really excited about this inspired change.

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a financial order that would eradicate poverty. This effort is fundamental to the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

The resurrection accomplishes this even better, and yet it is the minimum level of salvation given to all.

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We also learned that a necessary condition of capitalism is that there must exist a sufficiently large group of people for whom it is necessary to sell their labor to capitalists.

I think that "capitalism" is too often confused with "free enterprise".

And just what should government (be it secular or ecclesiastical) do with the indolent poor?

D&C 42:42 Thou shalt not be idle; for he that is idle shall not eat the bread nor wear the garments of the laborer.

Edited to add,

1 Tim. 5:8 But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.

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I think that "capitalism" is too often confused with "free enterprise".

And just what should government (be it secular or ecclesiastical) do with the indolent poor?

D&C 42:42 Thou shalt not be idle; for he that is idle shall not eat the bread nor wear the garments of the laborer.

Edited to add,

1 Tim. 5:8 But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.

Interesting.

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And just what should government (be it secular or ecclesiastical) do with the indolent poor?

D&C 42:42 Thou shalt not be idle; for he that is idle shall not eat the bread nor wear the garments of the laborer.

Like those indolent elderly people living off Social Security benefits?

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D&C 42:42 Thou shalt not be idle; for he that is idle shall not eat the bread nor wear the garments of the laborer.

First, is there a reason I should think that the intention behind that scripture was a commandment to poor people? Does that scripture only speak to poor people? Are there idle middle class? Idle rich? If so, does that scripture apply to them?

Also, how do we reconcile this:

Perhaps thou shalt say: The man has brought upon himself his misery; therefore I will stay my hand, and will not give unto him of my food, nor impart unto him of my substance that he may not suffer, for his punishments are just (say, because of his laziness)

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Like those indolent elderly people living off Social Security benefits?

Oh geeze. Yes that is what those scriptures really mean.

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First, is there a reason I should think that the intention behind that scripture was a commandment to poor people? Does that scripture only speak to poor people? Are there idle middle class? Idle rich? If so, does that scripture apply to them?

Anybody can be idle. Who ever claimed that being idle is just for the poor is a fool.

Also, how do we reconcile this:

With this:

Is idleness an exception to what King Benjamin supposedly said, so that if I find out that a beggar is lazy, then I ought not give him any aid? To make his sermon clearer, should Benjamin have said this:

So how does one reconcile it?

There appears to be a contradiction in our scriptures. Perhaps we can get a serious response to the reconciliation?

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Oh geeze. Yes that is what those scriptures really mean.

The question was less about any scripture than about how the poster interpreted it.

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Well, David, we recently learned in another thread that modern capitalism is God's divine order. We also learned that a necessary condition of capitalism is that there must exist a sufficiently large group of people for whom it is necessary to sell their labor to capitalists. Thus, on earth, as it is in heaven (or should it be "in heaven, as it is on earth?), we simply cannot allow it to be the case that it's not necessary for anyone to sell their labor to capitalists (i.e. eradicate poverty), else how would zion's economy work?

Hence the scripture....

Wo unto you a poor men, whose hearts are not broken, whose spirits are not contrite, and whose bellies are not satisfied, and whose hands are not stayed from laying hold upon other men

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a man went his way up to the city and while on his way he was accosted and abused.

A High Priest walked by and looked upon the man and said "You lazy indolent get yourself out of the ditch and clean yourself up"

A short time later a Elder walked by and looked upon the man and said "Indolent cur, arise and clean thyself, I will not help you because you are doing nothing to help yourself."

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Hence the scripture....

Wo unto you a poor men, whose hearts are not broken, whose spirits are not contrite, and whose bellies are not satisfied, and whose hands are not stayed from laying hold upon other men

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The question was less about any scripture than about how the poster interpreted it.

And how did the poster interpret it? I did not see an interpretaion there. I am more than willing to bet that he was not thinking of what you wrote or anything remotely close to it.

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I don't see how that addresses the question I raised, which is this: Does God's divine capitalism depend on it being necessary for some people to sell their labor to other people? We learned in the other thread that capitalism depends on it being necessary for some people to have to sell their labor to other people, and so, in a certain sense, the system depends on their being poor people. If God's glorious economy is capitalism, then does God's glorious economy depend on their being poor people?

I do not think that "selling one's labour" was ever discussed. I also detect a hint of mockery in your post.

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So how does one reconcile it?

There appears to be a contradiction in our scriptures. Perhaps we can get a serious response to the reconciliation?

Nibley tried to clear up the contradiction by attempting to make the case that that scripture wasn't talking about poor people at all. He thought that, historically, statements like that referred to idle rich who appropriated the products produced by the poor who were forced to labor for the rich because they (they poor) had nothing but their labor to sell. He seems to have thought that when considered in its historical context that that was the meaning behind that particular scripture. But, hey, maybe he's wrong about all that. For all the love Nibley got and continues to get for his defense of Mormonism, his economic ramblings are widely disregarded. His communist tendencies obviously led him astray.

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I also detect a hint of mockery in your post.

:P

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Jesus is not so much setting forth the requirements necessary for entering into the Kingdom as much as he is providing assurances for the poor and needy.

There's a growing body of work that fleshes out the larger context of Palestinian Jewish/Christian macarisms, such as those found in Dead Sea Scrolls (e.g., 5Q525, or 5QBeatitutes), I Enoch, Sirach, etc. This puts us in the territory of the Essenes, Ebionites, and other sects focused on the poor. And Christ's early church seems similarly organized, with Judas as the money keeper worrying about "the Poor" in the Spikenard incident with Mary, Stephen's account of the widows being overlooked, the collecton for the poor in Acts. Eisenman points out the common language between the various "Poor" sects in Judaism and that used by James, Luke, Jesus, and others. Catherine Murphy makes some good connections in Wealth in the Dead Sea Scrolls (Brill: 2002). Put in its larger context, I think you're on the right track with the Beatitudes.

Cheers

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I don't see how that addresses the question I raised, which is this: Does God's divine capitalism depend on it being necessary for some people to sell their labor to other people? We learned in the other thread that capitalism depends on it being necessary for some people to have to sell their labor to other people, and so, in a certain sense, the system depends on their being poor people. If God's glorious economy is capitalism, then does God's glorious economy depend on their being poor people?

In a "free enterprise" system a person (or company) offers to by your labor, and you can choose to sell your labor to them or to another person or company that makes you the offer. Or you can choose to produce your own product or service with your labor and sell that in exchange for the goods or services that you need but cannot produce (at least as efficiently).

No one forces you to work for that EEVVIILL capitalist. You are free to provide your own job, if you don't like the offers being proffered.

But you are not free to use the force of government to steal from your neighbor for yours or any other persons individual benefit.

Edited to add,

When someone gets something that they didn't earn, then someone doesn't get something that they did earn.

Unless the exchange was voluntary, where is the justice in it?

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There's no change in doctrine here, or even emphasis.

In the Worldwide training, Elder Oaks stated that this portion is a restoration of the original emphasis due to the fact that "some have given excessive attention to definitions and boundaries among these three applications of the Lord

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