339 replies to this topic

[ELF1024]

Rob Bowman, on 23 November 2010 - 01:57 PM, said:

ELF,

Your statement, which suggests as many as three different explanations, provides another example of the observation that I have made, which is that Mormons are willing to entertain almost any explanation for the discrepancy between Luke and Joseph Smith except that Joseph was wrong.

Mr. Bowman, with respect. You're living up to my expectation that you, and most Christians, would accept any explanation; with the exception that the LDS Church or Joseph Smith was correct.

[zerinus]

Rob Bowman, on 23 November 2010 - 09:10 AM, said:

zerinus,

Some of your fellow Mormons assert that there is a "pattern" of how one must receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. I simply asked for a demonstration of this pattern. What you are saying, in effect, is that there is no pattern because the Holy Ghost can be received in all sorts of different ways, but there still is some obligation of undergoing the laying on of hands in order to obtain the Holy Ghost in one specific capacity. So, I conclude that you have conceded that this obligation cannot be supported by reference to any "pattern" in the Bible. Is that correct?

Of course there is. The "pattern" is the laying on of hands. Although the Holy Ghost can be received in many different ways and in various capacities and categories, something is obtained by the ritual of the laying on of hands that cannot be obtained in any other way; and that is the right to the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost. That is the "pattern".

[Hick Preacher]

Rob Bowman, on 23 November 2010 - 02:13 PM, said:

Hick,

It's true that the Churches of Christ and similar groups often deny being "Protestant," and yet some would call themselves "evangelical." Religious terminology is notoriously subject to being reused in different ways. Groups that view themselves as Restorationists rather than Protestants simply do not fit in what is known historically as evangelicalism. However, for sake of clarity, I am comfortable with the term "evangelical Protestantism," which will exclude such groups more clearly.

I have gone on record repeatedly pointing out that there are other forms of Christianity beside Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestant.

Thanks Rob,

This situation is significant because some LDS think that one has adhere to the  esoteric language of the Trinitarian Creeds of Protestant High Church, to be saved.  

It could also be significant because Mormonism in a historical manner has connections to certain kinds of Biblical Restorationism (Christian primitivism).
And in these Restorationist movements, 'the seekers' asked similar questions, and debated similar issues concerning the Laying on of Hands for the Holy Ghost.

Edited by Hick Preacher, 23 November 2010 - 02:32 PM.

[Hick Preacher]

zerinus, on 23 November 2010 - 02:23 PM, said:

Of course there is. The "pattern" is the laying on of hands. Although the Holy Ghost can be received in many different ways and in various capacities and categories, something is obtained by the ritual of the laying on of hands that cannot be obtained in any other way; and that is the right to the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost. That is the "pattern".

Zerinus,

What you have related is a fundamental Mormon claim. It is part of why Mormons say that the LDS Church is the One True Church.

Nevertheless, as posted previously on this thread, there are other Bible-based explanations as to why Christians over the last 2000 years have had the conviction, testimony, and fruits of the Spirit that indicate that they have had the constant indwelling of the Holy Spirit. All of this with out this specific LDS style ordinance for the Gift of the Holy Ghost.

[ELF1024]

Hick Preacher, on 23 November 2010 - 02:40 PM, said:

Zerinus,

What you have related is a fundamental Mormon claim. It is part of why Mormons say that the LDS Church is the One True Church.

Nevertheless, as posted previously on this thread, there are other Bible-based explanations as to why Christians over the last 2000 years have had the conviction, testimony, and fruits of the Spirit that indicate that they have had the constant indwelling of the Holy Spirit. All of this with out this specific LDS style ordinance for the Gift of the Holy Ghost.

I would argue that there is no way to prove "that they have had the constant indwelling of the Holy Spirit".

[Vance]

ELF1024, on 23 November 2010 - 02:44 PM, said:

I would argue that there is no way to prove "that they have had the constant indwelling of the Holy Spirit".

Don't need no stinking proof.  A bald assertion is sufficient.

[ELF1024]

Vance, on 23 November 2010 - 02:50 PM, said:

Don't need no stinking proof.  A bald assertion is sufficient.

I'm waiting for someone to say that the signs of the Stigmata are proof of the constant indwelling of the Holy Ghost, and not signs of a deranged mind and self-mutilation.

[zerinus]

Hick Preacher, on 23 November 2010 - 02:40 PM, said:

Zerinus,

What you have related is a fundamental Mormon claim. It is part of why Mormons say that the LDS Church is the One True Church.

Nevertheless, as posted previously on this thread, there are other Bible-based explanations as to why Christians over the last 2000 years have had the conviction, testimony, and fruits of the Spirit that indicate that they have had the constant indwelling of the Holy Spirit. All of this with out this specific LDS style ordinance for the Gift of the Holy Ghost.

It is no secret that Protestants in general, and Evangelicals in particular, have rejected the efficacy of most, if not all the Catholic sacraments, and the necessity of them for salvation; but that still amounts to a minority of "Christians," not most, or by any means all of them.

[Hick Preacher]

ELF1024, on 23 November 2010 - 02:44 PM, said:

I would argue that there is no way to prove "that they have had the constant indwelling of the Holy Spirit".

Are you saying that you have concrete proof that Mormons do?

[Vance]

Hick Preacher, on 23 November 2010 - 03:24 PM, said:

Are you saying that you have concrete proof that Mormons do?

Do you have concrete proof that you do?

[Vance]

zerinus, on 23 November 2010 - 02:54 PM, said:

It is no secret that Protestants in general, and Evangelicals in particular, have rejected the efficacy of most, if not all the Catholic sacraments, and the necessity of them for salvation; but that still amounts to a minority of "Christians," not most, or by any means all of them.

But . .  but . . . but there was no general apostasy, the church was just corrupted and only needed to be reformed.

Edited by Vance, 23 November 2010 - 03:31 PM.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

"You first."

"No, you first."

"But I asked you first."

"So? I'll show you my proof if you show me yours."

Bah.

Edited by BookofMormonLuvr, 23 November 2010 - 03:31 PM.

[ELF1024]

Hick Preacher, on 23 November 2010 - 03:24 PM, said:

Are you saying that you have concrete proof that Mormons do?

I'm saying that it's just as likely that neither are true.

You can't prove it, we can't prove it... so what's your point?

If you had one example of someone having a constant indwelling of the Holy Spirit (prior to 1830) it might lead somewhere, but you don't. We don't have proof (since 1830) either.

[Hick Preacher]

zerinus, on 23 November 2010 - 02:54 PM, said:

It is no secret that Protestants in general, and Evangelicals in particular, have rejected the efficacy of most, if not all the Catholic sacraments, and the necessity of them for salvation; but that still amounts to a minority of "Christians," not most, or by any means all of them.

The efficacy of these Sacraments I would not discount out of hand.

The necessity of these Sacraments is it a different matter.

The LDS system claims unconditional salvation with out any of these sacraments.

And please note that I did qualify what I wrote with "LDS Style" associated with these what you call 'sacraments'.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

I have felt the Spirit in the LDS Church, the RLDS Restoration Branches, the Church of Christ (Temple Lot), the Adventist Church, a non-denominational church, watching TV preachers, listening to Christian radio, etc...

The Holy Spirit is there to witness of Jesus Christ, and it does it's job wherever that may be at. No one owns exclusive rights to it. Get over yourselves.

Edited by BookofMormonLuvr, 23 November 2010 - 03:36 PM.

[Hick Preacher]

ELF1024, on 23 November 2010 - 03:31 PM, said:

I'm saying that it's just as likely that neither are true.

You can't prove it, we can't prove it... so what's your point?

If you had one example of someone having a constant indwelling of the Holy Spirit (prior to 1830) it might lead somewhere, but you don't. We don't have proof (since 1830) either.

The point is that it does not appear to be evidence enough to verify that there is only one process of ritual by which people have gotten the Holy Ghost.

There are people before 1830 who were inspired, why would anyone doubt that?

[ELF1024]

Hick Preacher, on 23 November 2010 - 03:52 PM, said:

The point is that it does not appear to be evidence enough to verify that there is only one process of ritual by which people have gotten the Holy Ghost.

There are people before 1830 who were inspired, why would anyone doubt that?

I assume you are purposefully missing the fact that a constant indwelling and a brief inspiration are completely different things.

I would not argue that the light of Christ has not been available for everyone since he beginning of time.

There is only one process by which you can have the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost. It requires the laying on of hands by someone in Authority.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

ELF1024, on 23 November 2010 - 03:58 PM, said:

I assume you are purposefully missing the fact that a constant indwelling and a brief inspiration are completely different things.

I would not argue that the light of Christ has not been available for everyone since he beginning of time.

There is only one process by which you can have the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost. It requires the laying on of hands by someone in Authority.

I wonder what your feelings are about the Savior telling the Nephites that they could receive the 'baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost" just like the Lamanites did at the time of their conversion "and knew it not". Seems the Savior is giving equal value to what the Nephites could receive to what the Lamanites received without the laying on of hands...

3 Nephi 9:20
And ye shall offer for a sacrifice unto me a broken heart and a contrite spirit. And whoso cometh unto me with a broken heart and a contrite spirit, him will I baptize with fire and with the Holy Ghost, even as the Lamanites, because of their faith in me at the time of their conversion, were baptized with fire and with the Holy Ghost, and they knew it not.

*** I believe the laying on of hands is one method for receiving the Holy Ghost, but perhaps not the ONLY method. It is Christ who does the baptizing in this regard and He can baptize who He wants, it appears.

Edited by BookofMormonLuvr, 23 November 2010 - 04:17 PM.

[Hick Preacher]

ELF1024, on 23 November 2010 - 03:58 PM, said:

I assume you are purposefully missing the fact that a constant indwelling and a brief inspiration are completely different things.

I would not argue that the light of Christ has not been available for everyone since he beginning of time.

There is only one process by which you can have the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost. It requires the laying on of hands by someone in Authority.

Yes, I am familiar with the LDS view.  I was active LDS from age 18 to age 37.

I think the LDS system insists on this view of constant companionship because it is consistent and ideologically supportive of other aspects of of teachings- such as a way to explain the notion of the universal Apostasy.

[Hick Preacher]

BookofMormonLuvr, on 23 November 2010 - 04:08 PM, said:

I wonder what your feelings are about the Savior telling the Nephites that they could receive the 'baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost" just like the Lamanites did at the time of their conversion "and knew it not". Seems the Savior is given equal value to what the Nephites could receive to what the Lamanites received without the laying on of hands...

3 Nephi 9:20
And ye shall offer for a sacrifice unto me a broken heart and a contrite spirit. And whoso cometh unto me with a broken heart and a contrite spirit, him will I baptize with fire and with the Holy Ghost, even as the Lamanites, because of their faith in me at the time of their conversion, were baptized with fire and with the Holy Ghost, and they knew it not.

*** I believe the laying on of hands is one method for receiving the Holy Ghost, but perhaps not the ONLY method. It is Christ who does the baptizing in this regard and He can baptize who He wants, it appears.

Yeah, BookofMormonLuvr, I think that the Book of Mormon supports your stated assertion on this topic.
( and from my studies I am convinced the BoM is monotheistic too- another topic)