339 replies to this topic

[Rob Bowman]

All,

I'm traveling out of town and my involvement here is likely to be limited between now and the beginning of next week.

[Zakuska]

Ahab, on 15 November 2010 - 05:43 PM, said:

Come on now, Rob.  Shirley even you would admit that they weren't really true Christians.

I mean it's not like history doesn't ever repeat itself over and over again.

We saw this same thing in the murder of Joseph Smith.  Apostate ex-mormons joinied the ranks and mobs of anti-Mormon-Christian clergy and...  "thats all she wrote".

Edited by Zakuska, 16 November 2010 - 08:59 AM.

[Zakuska]

Hick Preacher, on 15 November 2010 - 05:43 PM, said:

'Vance'

Vance in quotes


I think there is only One Spirit of God, not three, four or five.



Does the Holy Ghost hold the Priesthood?  If so which office(s)?  He does hold at least one Priesthood office. Thus, holds the Priesthood.

See http://www.mormonbel...he_holy_ghost_1
If the Holy Ghost does God's work in Mormonism, He then must Hold the Priesthood.

  (HC 5:555)



In Mormonism surely the light of Christ is administered by the Priesthood.



It is just a word.




of Course-

What Priesthood does the Third Member of the Godhead (Holy Ghost) hold?

Could then He self administer the Holy Ghost-- because He has authority?

This speaks to the heart of the matter Hick.

Both Simon and the Apostles were ever much as "indwelt" by the Holy Ghost... so then why were the Apostles able to give the Holy Ghost and Simon was not?

Simon lacked something.  What was it?

Edited by Zakuska, 16 November 2010 - 09:09 AM.

[Hick Preacher]

Zakuska, on 16 November 2010 - 08:58 AM, said:

This speaks to the heart of the matter Hick.

Both Simon and the Apostles were ever much as "indwelt" by the Holy Ghost... so then why were the Apostles able to give the Holy Ghost and Simon was not?

Simon lacked something.  What was it?

Lets see-

Quote

Acts 8: 14   Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
15  Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
16  (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
17  Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.
18  And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,
19  Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.
20  But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.
21 Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God.

There is an interesting detail revealed in these passages.

The Apostles came to visit new converts and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Ghost.  I find it interesting that the text mentions that the Apostles prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Ghost  (And it does not say Gift of the Holy Ghost).

This seems to indicate the Apostles were acting as facilitators, aiding these new converts in getting this blessing of the spirit.   This represents the Apostles as asking God in behalf of the recipients that could have asked for themselves.  The scriptures also says that a person can ask for the Holy Ghost him/her self.

These recipients may well have gotten it if they asked for themselves.
As it is written:
Luke 11:13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask Him...
1Jo 4:13  Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.  

Peter says that Simon lacked the heart to get the Gift of the Holy Ghost at that time.  

It appears that Paul got the Holy Ghost by Laying on of Hands, and afterward was baptized.

There is no mention of Paul getting a formal Laying on of Hands for a separate Gift of the Holy Ghost, and Paul appears in the text to have immediately gone out Preaching without getting an LDS type Priesthood for the Authority to do so.

Quote

Acts 9:17  And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.
18  And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.
19  And when he had received meat, he was strengthened. Then was Saul certain days with the disciples which were at Damascus.20 And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God.

Other accounts could be construed to mean that if you really got the Holy Ghost- that you would necessarily speak in tongues and prophesy.

Quote

Acts 19:6 “And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied”

There seems to be no exact protocol in the New Testament for the order of  Baptism and Getting the Holy Ghost or how the Gift always comes to people. And case histories of said events seem to show not strict order is to be imposed.

Edited by Hick Preacher, 16 November 2010 - 08:23 PM.

[cdowis]

Hick Preacher, on 16 November 2010 - 08:21 PM, said:

Lets see-

OK.



There is an interesting detail revealed in these passages.

The Apostles came to visit new converts and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Ghost.  I find it interesting that the text mentions that the Apostles prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Ghost  (And it does not say Gift of the Holy Ghost).

This seems to indicate the Apostles were acting as facilitators, aiding these new converts in getting this blessing of the spirit.   This represents the Apostles as asking God in behalf of the recipients that could have asked for themselves.  The scriptures also says that a person can ask for the Holy Ghost him/her self.

You need to listen to our prayers.  I have been bestowed the Gift of the Holy Ghost, but I pray for the presence of the Holy Ghost upon myself and my family daily.  

You need to attend our church. In our public prayers, we ask for the presence of the Holy Ghost.  Our sacrament prayer specifically asks for the Holy Ghost.  In none of these instances is the Gift of the Holy Ghost mentioned.  Having that gift does not guarantee that the Holy Ghost is with us -- we need to seek it continually.

May I encourage you once again to listen to the living prophets and turn away from the theologians and Biblical scholars.  Remember the lesson of Saul, who rejected the scribes and Pharasees and became Paul.

Edited by cdowis, 17 November 2010 - 07:25 AM.

[Hick Preacher]

cdowis, on 17 November 2010 - 07:23 AM, said:

You need to listen to our prayers.  I have been bestowed the Gift of the Holy Ghost, but I pray for the presence of the Holy Ghost upon myself and my family daily.  

You need to attend our church. In our public prayers, we ask for the presence of the Holy Ghost.  Our sacrament prayer specifically asks for the Holy Ghost.  In none of these instances is the Gift of the Holy Ghost mentioned.  Having that gift does not guarantee that the Holy Ghost is with us -- we need to seek it continually.

May I encourage you once again to listen to the living prophets and turn away from the theologians and Biblical scholars.  Remember the lesson of Saul, who rejected the scribes and Pharasees and became Paul.

I do not see any reason to turn away from theologians and Biblical scholars.

But your other recommendations seem good and fine, by and large.

Edited by Hick Preacher, 17 November 2010 - 12:48 PM.

[Ahab]

Hick Preacher, on 17 November 2010 - 12:38 PM, said:

I do not see any reason to turn away from theologians and Biblical scholars.

Imagine being face to face with theologians and Bible scholars as if you are face to face with people who can tell you everything you need to know about God.

Now imagine turning around to be face to face with God, himself, standing shoulder to shoulder with theologians and Bible scholars.

See any difference?

Quote

But your other recommendations seem good and fine, by and large.

Okay, so you're willing to hear our prayers and come to our Church.  Would you also be interested in coming to a baptism ceremony held in your honor?

[PacMan]

Question:  Why then could some baptize, but had to wait for the Apostles to come and lay hands to give the Holy Ghost?  See Acts 8:14-17.

[Hick Preacher]

PacMan, on 21 November 2010 - 04:44 PM, said:

Question:  Why then could some baptize, but had to wait for the Apostles to come and lay hands to give the Holy Ghost?  See Acts 8:14-17.

Obviously this was a demonstration of the equal regeneration of Samarian Christians to Jewish Christians.  The Jews and Samaritans harbored generations of animosity towards one another.  New Jewish Christians would likely think of Samaritians as second class Christians if some outward verification of equality were not demonstrated.
Thus, God withheld the Spirit until a ritualistic in -person verification  by Laying on of Hands was performed by Jewish Apostles.

Edited by Hick Preacher, 21 November 2010 - 09:10 PM.

[Hick Preacher]

Ahab, on 17 November 2010 - 05:32 PM, said:

Imagine being face to face with theologians and Bible scholars as if you are face to face with people who can tell you everything you need to know about God.

Now imagine turning around to be face to face with God, himself, standing shoulder to shoulder with theologians and Bible scholars.

See any difference?


Okay, so you're willing to hear our prayers and come to our Church.  Would you also be interested in coming to a baptism ceremony held in your honor?

Say What?

[USU78]

Hick Preacher, on 21 November 2010 - 09:09 PM, said:

Obviously this was a demonstration of the equal regeneration of Samarian Christians to Jewish Christians.  The Jews and Samaritans harbored generations of animosity towards one another.  New Jewish Christians would likely think of Samaritians as second class Christians if some outward verification of equality were not demonstrated.
Thus, God withheld the Spirit until a ritualistic in -person verification  by Laying on of Hands was performed by Jewish Apostles.

Interesting notion, but how does one go about demonstrating such a thing with any degree of certainty?

[Vance]

Sorry, but I don't see how,

Hick Preacher, on 21 November 2010 - 09:09 PM, said:

God withheld the Spirit until a ritualistic in -person verification  by Laying on of Hands was performed by Jewish Apostles.

leads to,

Hick Preacher, on 21 November 2010 - 09:09 PM, said:

a demonstration of the equal regeneration of Samarian Christians to Jewish Christians.

Could you explain?

Edited by Vance, 22 November 2010 - 08:48 AM.

[Hick Preacher]

Vance, on 22 November 2010 - 08:47 AM, said:

Sorry, but I don't see how,
leads to,

Could you explain?

Samaritans were treated by Jewish culture of that day as a kind of 'untouchable' cast of person.  If a Samaritan were claimed to have the Gift of the Holy Ghost among Jewish Christians it would be hard for many Christians to understand as real at this point of the development of the early Church.

http://www.bible-his..._Samaritans.htm

Laying on of Hands is not about the magical transmission of power. Power is not transfered from one person to another, NOT like  passing electrical power through a conductor to make an appliance work.  

Rather Laying on of Hands is a outward sign a social ritual, and  a kind of tactile communication that a group witnesses, or a person experiences.  Tactile communication conveys love , acceptance and other important affective attitudes toward others.  
  
http://work911.com/c...verbtactile.htm

Jewish Apostles preforming the Laying on of Hands demonstrated acceptance and love toward an otherwise rejected cast of people.   God is fully aware of this situation and the Apostles worked in harmony with God's will in this instance.

Laying on of Hands as a ritual is an important part of many cultural forms of communication, and God commanded people since the time of Adam to build and support culture.

[Vance]

Hick Preacher, on 22 November 2010 - 09:24 AM, said:

Laying on of Hands is not about the magical transmission of power.

This, you have not established.

Quote

Power is not transfered from one person to another, NOT like  passing electrical power through a conductor to make an appliance work.

This, you have not established.

1 Tim. 4:14 Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery.

Acts 28:8 And it came to pass, that the father of Publius lay sick of a fever and of a bloody flux: to whom Paul entered in, and prayed, and laid his hands on him, and healed him.

Acts 8:18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,
  19 Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.

These, of course, are not new to this thread.

Quote

Jewish Apostles preforming the Laying on of Hands demonstrated acceptance and love toward an otherwise rejected cast of people.

So, the fact that JEWISH apostles had to come and lay on hands SHOWS acceptance of Samaritans?  I think not!  This is clear evidence that Jews were superior to Samaritans, otherwise, Samaritan apostles would have been called to do it.

[Hick Preacher]

Vance, on 22 November 2010 - 11:43 AM, said:

This, you have not established.


This, you have not established.

1 Tim. 4:14 Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery.

Acts 28:8 And it came to pass, that the father of Publius lay sick of a fever and of a bloody flux: to whom Paul entered in, and prayed, and laid his hands on him, and healed him.

Acts 8:18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,
  19 Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.

These, of course, are not new to this thread.


So, the fact that JEWISH apostles had to come and lay on hands SHOWS acceptance of Samaritans?  I think not!  This is clear evidence that Jews were superior to Samaritans, otherwise, Samaritan apostles would have been called to do it.

So Vance do you believe that the Holy Ghost is actually somehow transmitted like electricity through an LDS Priesthood Holder's body down through his arms in to his hands, then out into the head of the person being blessed?   Kind of like getting an I.V. infusion?

[Vance]

Hick Preacher, on 22 November 2010 - 12:52 PM, said:

So Vance do you believe that the Holy Ghost is actually somehow transmitted like electricity through an LDS Priesthood Holder's body down through his arms in to his hands, then out into the head of the person being blessed?

No, but nice strawman.

Quote

Kind of like getting an I.V. infusion?

No, but nice allusion in an attempt to make something look ridiculous.  + 5 points for sophistry.

So, Mister "Prima Scriptura" please feel free to explain why the scriptures I quoted don't mean what they say.

[Hick Preacher]

Vance, on 22 November 2010 - 01:15 PM, said:

No, but nice strawman.


No, but nice allusion in an attempt to make something look ridiculous.  + 5 points for sophistry.

So, Mister "Prima Scriptura" please feel free to explain why the scriptures I quoted don't mean what they say.

Vance, these passages that you have cited when carefully examined simply say that blessings were given along with the laying on of hands.  The laying on of hands did not transmit the gift, the function laying on of hands in these passages are an indication of palliative gestures.

Healings for example,  are often also administrated with the laying on of hands.  Again this touching tradition is not what transmits the essential healing powers, but rather, an accessory to the action of healing.

[Rob Bowman]

Ahab,

I had asked Vance: "Are you asserting that Christians killed the apostles?" You commented:

Ahab, on 15 November 2010 - 05:43 PM, said:

Come on now, Rob.  Shirley even you would admit that they weren't really true Christians.

You're confusing the issue. The question is who killed the apostles. Another way to state the question is this: I wanted to know if the people who killed the apostles, according to Vance, were people who professed to be Christians or not; or if you like, people who were at the time members of the Christian church.

So far, I can't seem to get a straight answer to this simple question. There's a reason for this: a straight answer would expose the fact that Mormons do not have a viable explanation of the so-called Great Apostasy.

[Vance]

Rob Bowman, on 22 November 2010 - 02:09 PM, said:

You're confusing the issue. The question is who killed the apostles. Another way to state the question is this: I wanted to know if the people who killed the apostles, according to Vance, were people who professed to be Christians or not; or if you like, people who were at the time members of the Christian church.

So far, I can't seem to get a straight answer to this simple question.

Rob,
See this post from 6 days ago.

http://www.mormonapo...__p__1208940325

Your question was answered.

Quote

There's a reason for this: a straight answer would expose the fact that Mormons do not have a viable explanation of the so-called Great Apostasy.

Well, you might have a point except the question was answered sometime ago.

Not sure how someone's answer to a question in the 21st century can affect the apostasy that started in the 1st.  Perhaps you could enlighten us.

BTW, what part of "not sparing the flock" is so difficult to understand?

[PacMan]

Hick Preacher, on 21 November 2010 - 09:09 PM, said:

Obviously this was a demonstration of the equal regeneration of Samarian Christians to Jewish Christians.  The Jews and Samaritans harbored generations of animosity towards one another.  New Jewish Christians would likely think of Samaritians as second class Christians if some outward verification of equality were not demonstrated.
Thus, God withheld the Spirit until a ritualistic in -person verification  by Laying on of Hands was performed by Jewish Apostles.

Of course.  Obviously.  Or not, because nothing in the text suggests that such was needed.  Moreover, why couldn't Phillip do it?  I think the answer is clear, that not only did Philip not have the authority, but that the process of by the laying on of hands.  As to authority - which is totally a separate issue - Hebrews makes it clear that authority is transmitted by the laying on of hands.  This is exactly why Simon the magician wanted it, and why he got such a scolding by Peter.  It wasn't a warm fuzzy, but a real demonstration of authority.

And by the way, there's nothing magic about it.  It's all about organization, which the Lord tends to be good at.

Rob,

Quote

So far, I can't seem to get a straight answer to this simple question. There's a reason for this: a straight answer would expose the fact that Mormons do not have a viable explanation of the so-called Great Apostasy.

Not viable?  The fact that not only did the Old Testament prophecy of it, but the Apostles did as well.  Start with the first couple chapters of Ephesians:  Paul's dispensation was the Grace of God, different than the dispensation of the fulness of times.  And it was in the dispensation of the fulness of times that the time of the Gentiles would be fulfilled and all things under heaven and on the earth would become one.  Dow when did that happen?  And if you have a restitution of all things, where's your authority?  Let's be certain to note that the office of Apostles and Prophets must be restituted (unless the Bible doesn't mean what it says).  And that also means authority.  Why?  Because they were the Apostles that came together to fill the vacancy of Judas.  Things were not to stay static, but there were to be significant shifts.  And the shifts culminated in the Apostasy - the falling away - once the Apostles died (and they knew they were going to die off, too).

Not only is it viable, but the only way to consider the scriptures in any sort of harmony.

PacMan