94 replies to this topic

[Rob Bowman]

The major prooftext that Mormons (and others) use to prove that apostles and prophets are needed perpetually in the church is Ephesians 4:11-13. These verses read as follows (all biblical quotations are taken from the KJV):

  “And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ.”

  The word “till” in verse 13, Mormons contend, proves that the church today still needs apostles and prophets as much as it needs evangelists, pastors, and teachers, since the church is not yet fully mature in faith and knowledge. LDS publications appeal to this text to demonstrate the need for a “restoration” of the true church, complete with apostles and prophets, through Joseph Smith.

  In Ephesians 4:11-13, is Paul saying that all five offices are to exist in the church “until” the church comes to maturity? Although Mormons insist that the passage must be read that way, that is not at all what Paul is saying. It is the “edifying” of the church (v. 12) which must continue until the church is mature, not all five of the offices listed in verse 11.

  As in the KJV, verses 11-13 in Greek are all part of a long, complex sentence, characteristic of Paul’s writings in general and of Ephesians in particular. (The sentence continues at least through the end of verse 14 and arguably through the end of verse 16.) The Greek word translated “until” (mechri) functions as a conjunction here in verse 13. (This is a different usage than its use as a preposition, where it is followed by a genitive noun.) As a conjunction, some action or state is said to occur or continue “until” the time indicated by the subordinate expression that mechri introduces. To understand its significance, we must find the verb or other expression that denotes the action or state that continues “until” the destination that the following clause (“we all come in the unity of the faith…”) expresses. It is that action that continues, as can be seen elsewhere in biblical Greek: “dried up…until” (Josh. 4:23); “until now I proclaim” (Ps. 71:17); “until…kept testing” (Ps. 105:18 ); “will not pass away until” (Mark 13:30); “I am in labor until” (Gal. 4:19).

  In Ephesians 4:11-13, the action or state cannot be that expressed by the verb “gave” (ed?ken) in verse 11, because that verb expresses a past act of giving, “he gave,” not a repeated or continuous giving (which would be “he gives”). In context, Christ “gave” these “gifts” after he ascended to heaven (v. 8 ). The tense and the semantic character of the verb, as well as this context, together lead to the conclusion that “gave” refers to an act that Paul speaks of as past and completed.

  In verse 12 there are three phrases that express an action: (12a) “for the perfecting of the saints”; (12b) “for the work of the ministry”; and (12c) “for the edifying of the body of Christ.” All three of these phrases use verbal nouns, “perfecting,” “work” and “ministry,” and “edifying.” Each of these three phrases denotes an ongoing or recurring or continuous action, and so any or all of them might be said to recur or continue “until” the goal is reached that is expressed in verse 13. Contextually, we should connect “till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ” specifically to the immediately preceding words “for the edifying of the body of Christ.” That is, Paul’s meaning is that the body of Christ will continue to be edified (that is, built up) until it reaches full maturity. Not only does this way of construing verse 13 connect it to the phrase that immediately precedes it, but these two parts of Paul’s sentence fit together most naturally. The “edifying of the body of Christ” is precisely the process that results in the church reaching its maturity in Christ, its goal of becoming full-grown in Christ.

  Verses 11-13 form a complex chain of clauses and phrases that may be outlined as follows:

• Christ gave some apostles, prophets, evangelists, and pastors and teachers (v. 11)
• The purpose of these ministry gifts is to perfect or equip the saints (v. 12a)
• The purpose of that perfecting is that the saints would do the work of ministry (v. 12b)
• The purpose of the work of ministry is to edify the body of Christ (v. 12c)
• That edifying will continue until the body of Christ is full-grown in Christ (v. 13)

       Each clause or phrase of these three verses links to the one immediately preceding, explaining the purpose or goal of what has just been said in that preceding clause or phrase. Verse 12a explains the purpose of the giving of the gifts in verse 11; verse 12b explains the purpose of the perfecting of the saints in verse 12a; verse 12c explains the purpose of the work of ministry in verse 12b; and verse 13 explains the goal toward which the edifying of which verse 12c speaks is directed. It is exegetically unwarranted and implausible to claim that we should link verse 13 directly to verse 11 instead of to the immediately preceding phrase in verse 12c.

  Thus, Ephesians 4:11-13 simply does not say that Christ gives the church all five of these ministries until we all attain to the unity of the faith. Rather, Paul says that Christ gave the church these ministries to perfect or equip the saints to do the work of ministry so that the church would continue to be edified or built up until we all attain to the unity of the faith and full maturity in Christ. Paul’s wording leaves open the question of whether all five ministry gifts would continue in the church until that unity and maturity are realized. The most we can conclude from this text is that the ministry gifts of apostle and prophet were to continue in the church until their role in “perfecting the saints” was completed. The question, then, is just what that role was.

  Before we discuss that question, though, one serious problem ought to be noted concerning the use of Ephesians 4:11 to justify the restoration of apostles and prophets in the LDS Church. Mormons acknowledge that apostles and prophets disappeared from the scene for some seventeen centuries. If, then, Ephesians 4:11 is saying that Christ gave the church apostles and prophets and that those ministries were to continue until the church was perfected, how is it that they were allowed to disappear? The persecution suffered by the church is no answer, since the apostles were not all killed at once and the church grew larger and larger during the fiercest times of persecution. If new apostles were needed, why didn’t Christ appear to some Christian men in the late first or early second century and appoint some?

  With regard to the exegesis of Ephesians 4:11, Mormons are likely to argue that if evangelists, pastors, and teachers are all continuing ministries in the church, we should view apostles and prophets as also continuing. They may argue that they see no reason to bracket off the apostles and prophets from the other three offices listed in verse 11. However, there are very good reasons for doing so. In the very same epistle, Paul twice refers to the apostles and prophets as a distinct group. In Ephesians 2:20 Paul states that the church, as a new composite body of Gentile and Jewish believers in Christ (cf. 2:11-22), is “built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone.” In Ephesians 3:5 Paul states that Christ’s purpose to unite Gentiles and Jews in the church (cf. 3:4-7) was “revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit.” Thus, Ephesians 2:20 and 3:5 speak of the apostles and prophets as a distinct group of two ministries that played a special, foundational role in the Christian church, unlike the evangelists, pastors, and teachers. In this light, it is not at all implausible to view apostles and prophets as temporary ministries while viewing evangelists, pastors, and teachers as ministries that would function in the church throughout its history.

  If we look more closely at these two references to apostles and prophets in Ephesians 2-3, we have further reason to reach such a conclusion. Paul describes the apostles and prophets as the church’s “foundation” (themelios, Eph. 2:20). Paul uses this term in earlier epistles to refer to a “foundation” of someone’s past accomplishment on which others might or might not choose to build. Thus, he told the Corinthians, “I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon” (1 Cor. 3:10). In that context he speaks of Jesus Christ as the only proper foundation on which to build (3:11-12). (There is no contradiction here with Ephesians 2:20; Paul is using the term “foundation” as a metaphor, and there is no reason why he cannot use the metaphor in different ways in different contexts.) In another epistle, he told the Roman Christians that his own mission was to preach the gospel to people who had not yet heard it, “lest I should build upon another man's foundation” (Rom. 15:20). A similar usage in a different context appears in 1 Timothy, where Paul speaks of those “laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come,” that is, a good foundation for the future, “that they may lay hold on eternal life” (1 Tim. 6:19). In all of these texts, Paul uses the term “foundation” in reference to someone or something in the past on which others later build. It would be quite in keeping with Paul’s usage elsewhere, then, to understand “the foundation of the apostles and prophets” (Eph. 2:20) to speak of the apostles and prophets as temporary ministries on which the church would continue to build until its full goal was reached.

  Ephesians 3:5 in context gives further support for this conclusion. Paul says that the mystery of Christ “in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; that the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel: whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power” (Eph. 3:5-7). Paul here states explicitly that the apostles and prophets were the instruments through whom God revealed something that he had not revealed in previous eras. We have here an explicit statement contradicting the notion that God gives the same revelations or discloses the same truths to people in every era. The history of revelation is an uneven and progressive history in which God reveals specific truths at specific times through specific individuals of his choosing. God does not obligate himself to provide such revelations to everyone, nor does he promise that each generation will have revelatory spokesmen like the apostles and prophets that God graciously chose to serve him in Paul’s day. Those apostles and prophets served at God’s pleasure as the “foundation” (2:20) of the church as a community of Jews and Gentiles united as one body in Christ. As long as the church continues to grow and mature in God’s purpose for the church as Christ’s body, its “foundation” of the apostles and prophets continues to serve its purpose even after those men have passed from the earthly scene.

  It is important to understand, then, that the apostles and prophets remain the foundation of the Christian church. That function never ends, even though the apostles and prophets themselves died. We do not need apostles and prophets living on the earth today for the church to rest on the foundation of the apostles and prophets. Indeed, as I have explained, Paul’s usage of the term themelios suggests that they function as the “foundation” in the sense that those who come after the apostles and prophets build on what they started. What matters is how we build on that foundation (cf. 1 Cor. 3:10).

[Sky]

Are you familiar with the threefold mission of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?

- Proclaim the Gospel
- Perfect the Saints
- Redeem the Dead

We could not accomplish the threefold mission of the Church without modern revelation and the proper Priesthood keys and authority.  Living prophets and apostles are indispensible.  If they were necessary in ancient times, why would they not be necessary today?

For additional insight, please see the following talk by President Ezra Taft Benson from the May 1986 Ensign.

[Nathair]

Sky, on 06 November 2010 - 09:38 PM, said:

Are you familiar with the threefold mission of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?

- Proclaim the Gospel
- Perfect the Saints
- Redeem the Dead

We could not accomplish the threefold mission of the Church without modern revelation and the proper Priesthood keys and authority.  Living prophets and apostles are indispensible.  If they were necessary in ancient times, why would they not be necessary today?

For additional insight, please see the following talk by President Ezra Taft Benson from the May 1986 Ensign.

And of course the Great One's"How Will It Be When None More Saith 'I Saw'?"  But none of this addresses your argument; which, I confess, is beyond my ability to engage.  You may be right that that particular argument for the necessity of living prophets and apostles in the Lord's authorized church is not as strong as we like to think.  


Yours under the cautious oaks,
Nathair /|\

[TAO]

Well, let's start by reading Number 12:6

Quote

And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a ^aprophet among you, I the Lord will make myself known unto him in a ^bvision, and will speak unto him in a ^cdream.

Hmmm.... sounds familiar.

And then Jeremiah 7:25

Quote

Since the day that your fathers came forth out of the land of Egypt unto this day I have even ^asent unto you all my servants the ^bprophets, daily rising up early and sending them:

Hmmm.... so the Lord sends prophets quite often.

In an unorthodox manner, Amos 3:7

Quote

Surely the Lord God will do nothing, ^abut he ^brevealeth his ^csecret unto his servants the ^dprophets.

So has the Lord God stopped doing things?  If he doesn't have any more prophets, can he do things?  I remember you and I having a discussion earlier about it meaning "he wont' do anything till he reveals his secrets to the prophets", but I'm sure you'll agree that the Lord is still doing things in this world.

Quote

As he ^aspake by the mouth of his holy ^bprophets, which have been since the world began:

Another verse which says the Lord speaks through prophets, which have always existed.

Quote

And are built upon the foundation of the ^aapostles and ^bprophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief ^ccorner stone;

The church must be built upon apostles and prophets.

And alos this verse, 1 Cor. 12:28

Quote

And God hath set some in the church, first ^aapostles, secondarily ^bprophets, thirdly ^cteachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, ^dgovernments, diversities of tongues.

Apostles, prophets, and teachers are needed in the church.

So if God acts today at all (Amos 3:7) he will have apostles, prophets, teacher, miracles, helps, governments, and translators (1 Cor 12:28).

[Palerider]

TAO, on 06 November 2010 - 11:01 PM, said:

Well, let's start by reading Number 12:6



Hmmm.... sounds familiar.

And then Jeremiah 7:25



Hmmm.... so the Lord sends prophets quite often.

In an unorthodox manner, Amos 3:7



So has the Lord God stopped doing things?  If he doesn't have any more prophets, can he do things?  I remember you and I having a discussion earlier about it meaning "he wont' do anything till he reveals his secrets to the prophets", but I'm sure you'll agree that the Lord is still doing things in this world.



Another verse which says the Lord speaks through prophets, which have always existed.



The church must be built upon apostles and prophets.

And alos this verse, 1 Cor. 12:28



Apostles, prophets, and teachers are needed in the church.

So if God acts today at all (Amos 3:7) he will have apostles, prophets, teacher, miracles, helps, governments, and translators (1 Cor 12:28).

This would indicate then that God did nothing for the previous 1700 years before Joseph Smith according to your logic since there were no prophets or apostles on the earth at that time. And yet I see His hand moving in many areas of spiritual progression during medievel and later times without a true prophet being on the earth.

Remember when the Israelites lost the ark of the covenant to the Philistines, the Lord didn't need anyone's help retrieving it. He is quite capable of working among men without an assigned representative or official organization.

There are numerous scriptural (biblical) references regarding the restoration of Israel to it's final glory but unfortunately they don't indicate that it will take place in the manner proposed by Joseph Smith. Mark 12:1-9 especially is indicative of this, paying special attention to verse 6. The final sending of the Son to Israel and his subsequent rejection was a "game changer". Having the foundation laid by the original apostles, the writings of the scriptures, and the incorporation of the gentiles into the family of Israel; the church became reliant upon the Spirit to guide those who truly seek out Christ and His salvation until the times of the gentiles are fulfilled.

Edited by Palerider, 07 November 2010 - 12:05 AM.

[zerinus]

Rob Bowman, on 06 November 2010 - 09:04 PM, said:

The major prooftext that Mormons (and others) use to prove that apostles and prophets are needed perpetually in the church is Ephesians 4:11-13. These verses read as follows (all biblical quotations are taken from the KJV): . . .

Your posts keep getting ever longer and more unwieldy to reply to, and not really suitable a discussion forum such as this one. This post requires a 20 page essay to reply to, and nobody wants to spend that much time replying to a single post or thread. If you are serious about engaging Mormons in debate, I suggest you reduce your posts to manageable sizes so people will have the inclination to reply to them. I will here take the time to only reply to the opening sentence of your post quoted above:

Your error starts right here. Ephesians 4:11-13 is not "The major prooftext that Mormons use to prove that apostles and prophets are needed perpetually in the church". It is one among many, and it is the cumulation of them that builds a strong case for that belief. The "major proof text," if there is one, is (1) the fact that after the death of Christ the Twelve Apostles became the governing council of the Church, and whenever a serious problem arose in the early church, such as the question of the circumcision of the Gentiles for example, it was taken before that council to be resolved (in spite of the great difficulties of travel and communication that it entailed in those days). And (2) on the death of one of the Apostles (e.g. Judas), someone was appointed to succeed him. These are the strongest indications that that institution was meant to be perpetuated.

In the days of the Apostles the Church had a head, an earthly governing council that relied on revelation and the spirit of prophecy to address the Church's needs and resolve theological or any other kind of problems, and that was the Twelve Apostles. After the death of the Apostles, that head was gone, and the rest of the Church, not having a head to guide it, went in all kinds of directions and not having a standard to follow, witnessed by the fact that a diversity of doctrines, practices, and procedures developed in different parts of the Christian world which later led to controversies about how to resolve them. In the forth and fifth centuries eventually the bishop of Rome emerged as the titular head of the Church for political reasons, because Rome was the capital city of the Roman Empire, and Constantine had made it his business to become the chief patron of the Church at that time. But it was not so in the beginning. The bishops had local jurisdiction over local provinces. No single bishop had jurisdiction over the entire Church. But the fact that the Church needed an earthly head is demonstrated by the fact that when the real ones had gone (the Twelve Apostles), something else had to emerge to take its place. Ephesians 4:11-13 is one among many "proof texts," but in reality is the combination of all of them that builds a strong case for the belief in the perpetuation of the Twelve Apostles in the Church.

With regard to the rest your post, I don't frankly have the time right now to write a 20 page essay refuting every single one of the points you have raised. I may do so one at a time as time goes by. But the above response is sufficient to refute most of your arguments.

[Rob Bowman]

For now, I plan to ignore posts that do not engage the exegetical arguments concerning the meaning of the texts in Ephesians. I was challenged on this forum to address these texts, because supposedly they prove that the church always needs living apostles. I have argued exegetically that these texts do not teach this idea. Any responses that ignore the exegetical issues (say, by appealing to other texts, or by explaining the rationale for modern-day apostles, or by appealing to modern revelation, etc., etc.) have no bearing on the subject of this thread.

[Rob Bowman]

zerinus,

Please see the opening posts in two recent threads started by a couple of your fellow Mormons, maklelan and nackhadlow. Then ask yourself whether you might be guilty of a double standard.

zerinus, on 07 November 2010 - 01:55 AM, said:

Your posts keep getting ever longer and more unwieldy to reply to, and not really suitable a discussion forum such as this one. This post requires a 20 page essay to reply to, and nobody wants to spend that much time replying to a single post or thread. If you are serious about engaging Mormons in debate, I suggest you reduce your posts to manageable sizes so people will have the inclination to reply to them.... With regard to the rest your post, I don't frankly have the time right now to write a 20 page essay refuting every single one of the points you have raised. I may do so one at a time as time goes by. But the above response is sufficient to refute most of your arguments.

[zerinus]

Rob Bowman, on 07 November 2010 - 06:32 AM, said:

zerinus,

Please see the opening posts in two recent threads started by a couple of your fellow Mormons, maklelan and nackhadlow. Then ask yourself whether you might be guilty of a double standard.

Neither of them fellows are people whom I take very seriously on this board to be honest.

[David T]

Rob Bowman, on 06 November 2010 - 09:04 PM, said:

The most we can conclude from this text is that the ministry gifts of apostle and prophet were to continue in the church until their role in “perfecting the saints” was completed. The question, then, is just what that role was.

I think this is the crux of the on-going discussion. Again, like in many cases, I agree with your general deconstruction of the text here (the outlining of the clauses is very nice!), but disagree with many of the conclusions of implications made in connection with it. But since my comments on this particular and specific  point (the role of the Apostles) don't specifically  "engage the exegetical arguments concerning the meaning of the texts in Ephesians" , I'll keep it in the other thread. It's here.

Edited by nackhadlow, 07 November 2010 - 09:19 AM.

[zerinus]

Rob Bowman, on 06 November 2010 - 09:04 PM, said:

The major prooftext that Mormons (and others) use to prove that apostles and prophets are needed perpetually in the church is Ephesians 4:11-13. These verses read as follows (all biblical quotations are taken from the KJV):

“And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ.”

The word “till” in verse 13, Mormons contend, proves that the church today still needs apostles and prophets as much as it needs evangelists, pastors, and teachers, since the church is not yet fully mature in faith and knowledge. LDS publications appeal to this text to demonstrate the need for a “restoration” of the true church, complete with apostles and prophets, through Joseph Smith.

In Ephesians 4:11-13, is Paul saying that all five offices are to exist in the church “until” the church comes to maturity? Although Mormons insist that the passage must be read that way, that is not at all what Paul is saying. It is the “edifying” of the church (v. 12) which must continue until the church is mature, not all five of the offices listed in verse 11. . . .

(Emphisis added.) That is obviously an illogical way if interpreting those verses. The “edifying” is carried out by means of the ministry of those five offices mentioned. The “edifying” does not happen by itself. It happens by means of ministering of the said officers. Without the continued ministry of the “officers,” the “edifying” cannot take place or continue. And no distinction is made between the different officers. All are equally necessary for that edifying to take place. If the “edifying” must continue, so must the “officers”. So your argument seems to fall flat on its face from the start.

And by the way, I looked up this passage in multiple translations, and they all seem to be saying pretty much the same thing:

New International Version (NIV)

11 So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, 12 to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13 until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

11 And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; 13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ.

New Living Translation (NLT)

11 Now these are the gifts Christ gave to the church: the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, and the pastors and teachers. 12 Their responsibility is to equip God’s people to do his work and build up the church, the body of Christ. 13 This will continue until we all come to such unity in our faith and knowledge of God’s Son that we will be mature in the Lord, measuring up to the full and complete standard of Christ.

English Standard Version (ESV)

11 And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds and teachers, 12 to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, 13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ,

Contemporary English Version (CEV)

11 Christ chose some of us to be apostles, prophets, missionaries, pastors, and teachers, 12 so that his people would learn to serve and his body would grow strong. 13 This will continue until we are united by our faith and by our understanding of the Son of God. Then we will be mature, just as Christ is, and we will be completely like him.

New King James Version (NKJV)

11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, 13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ;

New Century Version (NCV)

11 And Christ gave gifts to people—he made some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to go and tell the Good News, and some to have the work of caring for and teaching God's people. 12 Christ gave those gifts to prepare God's holy people for the work of serving, to make the body of Christ stronger. 13 This work must continue until we are all joined together in the same faith and in the same knowledge of the Son of God. We must become like a mature person, growing until we become like Christ and have his perfection.

GOD’S WORD Translation (GW)

11 He also gave apostles, prophets, missionaries, as well as pastors and teachers as gifts to his church. 12 Their purpose is to prepare God’s people to serve and to build up the body of Christ. 13 This is to continue until all of us are united in our faith and in our knowledge about God’s Son, until we become mature, until we measure up to Christ, who is the standard.

21st Century King James Version (KJ21)

11 And He gave some to be apostles, and some prophets, and some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12 for the perfecting of the saints for the work of the ministry, and for the edifying of the body of Christ, 13 until we all come into the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ;

Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

11 and He gave some [as] apostles, and some [as] prophets, and some [as] proclaimers of good news, and some [as] shepherds and teachers, 12 unto the perfecting of the saints, for a work of ministration, for a building up of the body of the Christ, 13 till we may all come to the unity of the faith and of the recognition of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to a measure of stature of the fulness of the Christ,

Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)

11 And He personally gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers, 12 for the training of the saints in the work of ministry, to build up the body of Christ, 13 until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of God's Son, [growing] into a mature man with a stature measured by Christ's fullness.

American Standard Version (ASV)

11 And he gave some to be apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 for the perfecting of the saints, unto the work of ministering, unto the building up of the body of Christ: 13 till we all attain unto the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a fullgrown man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Darby Translation (DARBY)

11 and *he* has given some apostles, and some prophets, and some evangelists, and some shepherds and teachers, 12 for the perfecting of the saints; with a view to [the] work of [the] ministry, with a view to the edifying of the body of Christ; 13 until we all arrive at the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, at [the] full-grown man, at [the] measure of the stature of the fulness of the Christ;

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)

11 It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, 12 to prepare God’s people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13 until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.

Wycliffe New Testament (WYC)

11 And he gave some apostles, some prophets, others evangelists, others shepherds and teachers, 12 to the full ending of saints, into the work of ministry, into [the] edification of Christ's body, 13 till we run all, into unity of faith and of knowing of God's Son, into a perfect man, after the measure of the age of the plenty of Christ; [till we run all, in unity of faith and of knowing of God's Son, into a perfect man, into the measure of age of the plenty of Christ;]

Today's New International Version (TNIV)

11 So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, 12 to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13 until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.

Edited by zerinus, 07 November 2010 - 10:29 AM.

[bluebell]

zerinus, on 07 November 2010 - 07:11 AM, said:

Neither of them fellows are people whom I take very seriously on this board to be honest.

You should.  They are more knowledgeable than most of us.

[CV75]

Rob Bowman, on 06 November 2010 - 09:04 PM, said:

  “And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ.”

It is important to understand, then, that the apostles and prophets remain the foundation of the Christian church. That function never ends, even though the apostles and prophets themselves died. We do not need apostles and prophets living on the earth today for the church to rest on the foundation of the apostles and prophets. Indeed, as I have explained, Paul’s usage of the term themelios suggests that they function as the “foundation” in the sense that those who come after the apostles and prophets build on what they started.

Instead, this shows that that whenever there is a new dispensation and a legitimate Church upon the earth, the Lord gave the essential callings/ministries/positions/authorities to do the ongoing work of bringing His children to Christ, who is the true foundation. If these verses were meant to refer to individual personalities and not ecclesiastical positions characteristic of Christ's legitimate church, their names would have been listed or they would have otherwise been identified as those who were specifically ministering only for the time being to get the ball rolling, eventually without them. But this is not the function of a foundation, to merely get the ball rolling. This is why whenever there was an apostasy, these gifts were removed and had to be given again.

[WalkerW]

zerinus, on 07 November 2010 - 07:11 AM, said:

Neither of them fellows are people whom I take very seriously on this board to be honest.

That's ok. None of us take you seriously.

[WalkerW]

Great post, Rob. While I think your interpretation of Eph. 2:20 is plausible, it requires certain assumptions. You speak of a "foundation" being something in the past or temporary. It seems like you are saying the "foundation" is the teaching, witness, and/or revelation of the original apostles and prophets. However, Eph. 2:20 is a genitive of material, meaning the foundation that consists of the apostles and prophets or made up of the apostles and prophets (like a table of wood). The role of these apostles and prophets is defined in Eph. 3:5: they receive the mysteries and revelations of God. I strongly recommend Raymond Brown, "The Pre-Christian Semitic Concept of 'Mystery'," Catholic Biblical Quarterly 20:4 (1958), which links the OT concept of prophets being ushered into the divine council (e.g. Amos 3:7) with the NT concept of apostles and prophets being ushered into the divine mysteries.

The question in my view becomes:

Is it the office of apostles and prophets that is the foundation or the message of the originals? If the latter, then your view makes complete sense. If the former, then it seems to me that the roles are still necessary today. The difference is that the text says the apostles and prophets themselves make up the foundation. The latter one seems a bit ad hoc.

[Vance]

Nathair, on 06 November 2010 - 09:51 PM, said:

And of course the Great One's"How Will It Be When None More Saith 'I Saw'?"  But none of this addresses your argument; which, I confess, is beyond my ability to engage.  You may be right that that particular argument for the necessity of living prophets and apostles in the Lord's authorized church is not as strong as we like to think.  


Yours under the cautious oaks,
Nathair /|\

Hey thanks for prooviding that link.     

[zerinus]

WalkerW, on 07 November 2010 - 12:36 PM, said:

That's ok. None of us take you seriously.

Those that matter do!

[Pahoran]

Rob Bowman, on 06 November 2010 - 09:04 PM, said:

Does Ephesians teach that the church always needs living apostles on the earth?

The answer is yes.  Thank you for asking.

Your attempt to explain away the plain meaning of the passage in question is an entertaing one; but all it really proves is that "religious research" is, in certain quarters, merely a euphemism for "polemical advocacy."

Regards,
Pahoran

[Vance]

Rob Bowman, on 06 November 2010 - 09:04 PM, said:

  In Ephesians 4:11-13, the action or state cannot be that expressed by the verb “gave” (ed?ken) in verse 11, because that verb expresses a past act of giving, “he gave,” not a repeated or continuous giving (which would be “he gives”).

Why would he need to continually give those offices after he already gave them?  Even if you presume that he was not talking about offices, which he clearly was, but rather individuals, what is to preclude Him from giving again?

Quote

In context, Christ “gave” these “gifts” after he ascended to heaven (v. 8 ).

Actually the conjuction "and" at the beginning of vs.11 doesn't require the gifts that follow to have been given "after he ascended to heaven".  It should be obvious that the apostles were called prior to His ascension, and that He organized His church with apostles, etc, PRIOR to His ascension.

I think it is rather obvious that the gift given AFTER His ascension was the Holy Ghost (see vs.3). This is supported by other verses as well.

So the context isn't what you have tried to construct.

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The tense and the semantic character of the verb, as well as this context, together lead to the conclusion that “gave” refers to an act that Paul speaks of as past and completed.

Yeah, so the organizational structure of the church with apostles, etc, was completed. Set in stone if you will.  And with its disappearance, what?

Christ is precluded from restoring it?

[Vance]

Rob Bowman, on 06 November 2010 - 09:04 PM, said:

  In verse 12 there are three phrases that express an action: (12a) “for the perfecting of the saints”; (12b) “for the work of the ministry”; and (12c) “for the edifying of the body of Christ.” All three of these phrases use verbal nouns, “perfecting,” “work” and “ministry,” and “edifying.” Each of these three phrases denotes an ongoing or recurring or continuous action, and so any or all of them might be said to recur or continue “until” the goal is reached that is expressed in verse 13.

EXACTLY!!!!

Thus the need for continual filling of the permanent offices.  Very nice catch on your part.

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Contextually, we should connect “till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ” specifically to the immediately preceding words “for the edifying of the body of Christ.”

I wouldn't limit it to just that phrase.  I think that it is rather obvious that it applies to all three phrases;

For the perfecting of the saints,
for the work of the ministry,
for the edifying of the body of Christ:

Quote

That is, Paul’s meaning is that the body of Christ will continue to be edified (that is, built up) until it reaches full maturity. Not only does this way of construing verse 13 connect it to the phrase that immediately precedes it, but these two parts of Paul’s sentence fit together most naturally. The “edifying of the body of Christ” is precisely the process that results in the church reaching its maturity in Christ, its goal of becoming full-grown in Christ.

Again, why artifically limit it to just the one phrase?

Quote

  Verses 11-13 form a complex chain of clauses and phrases that may be outlined as follows:

• Christ gave some apostles, prophets, evangelists, and pastors and teachers (v. 11)
• The purpose of these ministry gifts is to perfect or equip the saints (v. 12a)
• The purpose of that perfecting is that the saints would do the work of ministry (v. 12b)
• The purpose of the work of ministry is to edify the body of Christ (v. 12c)
• That edifying will continue until the body of Christ is full-grown in Christ (v. 13)

       Each clause or phrase of these three verses links to the one immediately preceding, explaining the purpose or goal of what has just been said in that preceding clause or phrase.

WOW!!!!

You really are stretching with that one.  There is ABSOLUTELY NO REASON to presume such a limit. And your argument is base on this PRESUMPTION, unsupported as it is.

Quote

Thus, Ephesians 4:11-13 simply does not say that Christ gives the church all five of these ministries until we all attain to the unity of the faith.

So, one end of a chain isn't connected to the other end?  This is your logic?

So the church that has a foundation can continue to stand when the foundation is ripped out from under it?